kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Also Troi & Crusher's boobs loose their extra firmness.
One thing missing from 'A Time To...'
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Also Troi & Crusher's boobs loose their extra firmness.
These two points seem to be at odds with each other. In the first you are pointing out something that occurred in canon as being factual simply because it occurred in canon. Then in the second pointing out something that ALSO occurred in canon and subsequently dismissing it because it doesn't make sense.
Well, you know there are plenty of other lines that occur in canon that go uncorrected by the characters that still aren't true. Most notably, Wesley talking to Picard saying that the Klingons joined the Federation... and Picard didn't correct such a blindly wrong statement.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
At odds? Hardly.
That is because I do NOT dismiss the second canon information (Earth - Qo'nos being 4 days away). Indeed, it is the argument I base my conclusion on - that travel times are unreliable in determining whether a species is in or beyond Federation space.
They would only get old and die if the metaphasic 'treatement' stops.
Which would NOT be the case - the Federation gaining the ability to keep someone young.
Meaning the ba'ku will continue to be young, near-immortal and languishing in their rural paradise.
If it proves possible to harvest the radiation.
The Australian government once moved thousands of Aborgines out of Maralinga, in the Australian central desert, so that the UK and US could learn more via nuclear testing. The area became uninhabitable and some people who were moved - against their will - not only lost their homeland but their offspring were physically affected by the fallout, which went wider than anyone could predict. Some would argue the Aborigines had no claim to the area, since they'd crossed a temporary land bridge into Australia only 40 000 - 60 000 years earlier.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
In 2066, the ba'ku left their parent species. Let's say they were 30-40 years old.
For them to find the fountain of youth planet after 2161, they had to survive without medical intervention ~140-150 years (this would be the upper limit of their natural life span).
Between ~2170-2180 and 2375 there are ~200 years.
The sona could well have stayed a century on the planet (you could very well reduce this to ~70-80 years) and then a century in exile.
At ~170-180 years they would be past expiration date by a few decades - which is why they're all wrinkly.
And this time table assummes a number of things in your favor:
-that many of the ba'ku we see on the planet were born on their original homeworld, as opposed to all being born during the ba'ku exploration;
-that all the sona were born on the 'fountain of youth' planet, as opposed to being born previously, en route.
JB2005, i was only discussing whether or not the ba'ku found the planet before the Federation was founded. This has little influence on whether or not the planet is federation territory,
It is a canon fact that the 'fountain of youth' planet is a federation world (you yourself provided some of the quotes that establish this). Actually, this is a strong argument supporting the ideea that the ba'ku found the planet after it became a federation world.
Also - "misrepresenting the Laws"? I did such thing - look up the eminent domain laws.
I beg to differ
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
According to the movie, this is a certainty.
Sounds like the australian government stole the arborigines' land rather than expropriate it:
The australian government irradiated the arboriginnes by giving them a land obviously far more hazardous than the one they had. Hardly a just compensation.
No it isn't. All they said was that the planet was in Federation territory, but for it to be a Federation planet the Ba'ku would have to be members of the Federation, and it is very much 100% clear that in Ba'ku are in no way whatsoever Federation members. The planet may be in an area where there are other Federation member worlds, but unless the Ba'ku are Federation members, then it's not one of their planets.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
But it is, JD.
Picard says the planet is in federation territory and Dougherty says directly that it's a federation planet - that the federation has the planet (without Picard contradicting him).
Also, Picard doesn't even think of saying that the planet is independent or otherwise not the federation's as any half competent diplomat would if it were true. He mentions the Prime Directive only for us to find out it doesn't apply in this situation.
No, all they were referring to was that it was in an area controled by the Federation. The only way it would actually be their planet is the Ba'ku joined the Federation, which it is made very very clear in the movie that they had not. Really that's pretty obvious since before they started talking to them they thought they were primitive. Like others have said, just because a planet is in an area controlled by Federation doesn't make it theirs. We have seen plenty of planet that appear to be within Federation space that aren't members. I think what you're talking about would only really work if the planet were already a Federation member or if this was happening on part of a Federation member world.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
JD
Watch the movie. Or, at least, actually read my previous post, JD.
Picard says the planet is in federation territory. Dougherty specifically says the planet is the federation's, NOT only in federation territory (without being contradicted).
Picard never even tries to argue that the planet is independent of the federation (again, confirming it's NOT), and his prime directive argument is shot down immediately.
All these mean that canon establishes the planet as being federation real estate.
You think that if some romulans were to start a colony on a planet in federation territory, that planet automatically gains independence because the romulans are not federation members?
Hardly. That romulan colony gains independence - and the settled planet ceases to be federation territory - only if the federation recognises said independence.
Watch the movie. Or, at least, actually read my previous post, JD.
Picard says the planet is in federation territory. Dougherty specifically says the planet is the federation's, NOT only in federation territory (without being contradicted).
Picard never even tries to argue that the planet is independent of the federation (again, confirming it's NOT), and his prime directive argument is shot down immediately.
All these mean that canon establishes the planet as being federation real estate.
You think that if some romulans were to start a colony on a planet in federation territory, that planet automatically gains independence because the romulans are not federation members?
Hardly. That romulan colony gains independence - and the settled planet ceases to be federation territory - only if the federation recognises said independence.
Sorry to jump into the end of discussion with stupid question - but is that actually original Ba'ku World. Didn't they moved there? Sorry I haven't seen the film for a long time - I don't have that one and Nemesis.
So if I remember it correct - then Federation have even more right on a planet in their space after it is established that Ba'ku are just settlers there?!
So if I remember it correct - then Federation have even more right on a planet in their space after it is established that Ba'ku are just settlers there?!
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
JCooper
In 'Insurrection' it is established that the ba'ku left their homeworld and are, indeed, only settlers on the 'fountain of youth' planet.
As to the status of this planet - as already said, the movie confirms it as a federation planet.
In 'Insurrection' it is established that the ba'ku left their homeworld and are, indeed, only settlers on the 'fountain of youth' planet.
As to the status of this planet - as already said, the movie confirms it as a federation planet.
If it's a Federation planet, then why was Data's anthropology team using the duckblind? And why was the Enterprise's arrival treated as a First Contact scenario?
Data, obviously, was not one of Dougherty's men; he signed on to what he was lead to believe was an official Starfleet operation. He did this not as an investigator, but merely as a scientist with an interest in anthropological studies.
The Ba'ku had (or were assumed [by the Federation, as evidenced by Data's anthropological mission and Picard's briefing-fueled misconception] to have had) no knowledge of offworld life. Indeed, the only offworld life we know the Ba'ku were aware of was the Son'a and their own unnamed originators (we've seen no evidence that the precolonial Ba'ku had made contact with other species).
Therefor, they could not have known that they were in Federation territory, and thus could not be considered Federation citizens. The fact that the planet was located in Federation territory was irrelevant.
Data, obviously, was not one of Dougherty's men; he signed on to what he was lead to believe was an official Starfleet operation. He did this not as an investigator, but merely as a scientist with an interest in anthropological studies.
The Ba'ku had (or were assumed [by the Federation, as evidenced by Data's anthropological mission and Picard's briefing-fueled misconception] to have had) no knowledge of offworld life. Indeed, the only offworld life we know the Ba'ku were aware of was the Son'a and their own unnamed originators (we've seen no evidence that the precolonial Ba'ku had made contact with other species).
Therefor, they could not have known that they were in Federation territory, and thus could not be considered Federation citizens. The fact that the planet was located in Federation territory was irrelevant.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
You answered your own question:
Data and Picard, initially, erroneously thought the ba'ku were pre-warp - treating them accordingly (aka applying the Prime Directive).
Dougherty (and the Federation Council aka the Federation), of course, knew better. As directly stated in the movie, the Prime Directive does not apply to the ba'ku.
Whether or not the ba'ku knew that they were in federation territory is irrelevant. It's still federation territory.
Foreign citizens coming to USA and establishing a colony, not knowing they're on american territory changes nothing to the fact that they're on american territory - with all the consequences that follow from this.
The arrival of the Enterprise was never treated as a 'First Contact' scenario.
The movie itself is all over the place as far as what the Ba'ku are and how they should be treated:
They survey them from a 'duckblind', yet have a scout-ship flying around with no cloaking device.
No one seems to know whether they are protected by one of the 47 sub-clauses in the Prime Directive, Picard says 'Yes', Dougherty says 'no'.
Then the overall plot is a mess:
No one seems to do any research on the history of the Son'a. A race the Federation got in bed with for this mission. The only thing we do know is that they conquered two species a half century ago to become a working class.
Why hide the 'holographic' transport vessel on the planets surface in the first place? It makes no sense.
That's just scratching the surface.
In the 24th Century? Non-Section 31 members who know about them are:
The DS9 staff, Picard, Janeway (since deceased), Seven of Nine, Admiral Ross (possible member?), Sean Hawk (since deceased), Admiral Marta Batanides, Presidential Chief of Staff Koll Azernal (assassinated by them, though he'd apparently learned of them before), Federation Secretary of Military Intelligence Nelino Quafina (ditto), Romulan Tal Shiar Chairman Koval (an agent of theirs, since assassinated). Admiral Admiral Connaught Rossa may be an agent or may simply be aware of them and work with them now and then like Ross -- it's unclear. Anti-Dominion War activist Tomas Roeder may have known about them, but he was killed. Prior to arriving at DS9, Elias Vaughn knew about them and had joined the cabal of officers that James T. Kirk formed in the 23rd Century to try to fight them.
And apparently someone at Starfleet Command who buried the investigation Sisko tried to initiate into their existence.
So, all in all, not a horribly long list. And most of the people who learned about Section 31 are dead.
Native Americans are all American citizens, too. So, by definition, all of the United States belongs to them -- just like all of the United States belongs to European Americans, too.
And, by the way, what about people like me, who have both European and Native American ancestry? (I'm 1/8th Cherokee.)
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
First - Sci, I want to make clear that I gave that example (give the USA to native americans) specifically to illustrate what consequences such a fanatical following of a rule (deemed moral), without any consideration given to the concrete situation, creates - it only gives birth to suffering for many.
Second - that being said, 'by definition' does not amount to much. 'Theoretically' means nothing if, in practice, it translates into underdeveloped 'reservations'. The native americans were unquestionably NOT treated fairly.
About your question - hypothetically, the answer would be a simple matter of applying sucession law.
