One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

[DalekJim]

People who have never read the book, and one person who vaguely remembers it, debating its content. I can really see this conversation going places.

 

[Christopher]

^If you're so concerned about the facts of the book, why don't you provide us with some quotes from it and contribute something meaningful to the discussion?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

^But if they're so insightful, why would they think that regeneration wasn't established as normal for Time Lords until "The Invasion of Time" when it was actually established four years earlier? Or was Allyn simply misremembering their essay?

Quotes. These come from the first edition of About Time 3. I don't think they made any changes for the second.

By the time the Third Doctor turns into the Fourth, the audience is used to the idea of a different actor taking over the Doctor's role... but still doesn't take it as read that the power to change is one of the Doctor's built-in abilities, and still requires the story to explain it. Even given that enough time has passed since "The War Games" for a new audience to come along, there's no assumption that parents will tell younger viewers 'oh, yes, this is what he does'.

In "Planet of the Spiders" it's stated for the very first time that a regeneration (a new word!) is what happens when a Time Lord's body gets worn out, and it sounds suspiciously like an attempt to justify the events of "The Tenth Doctor" and "The War Games" to viewers who are about to meet yet another version of the Doctor. In a word that's hitherto been more commonly used in a religious context, which is what K'Anpo seems to have been through in order to astrally-project to UNIT HQ. It's noticeable that even here, the Doctor can't regenerate without turning the whole process into a life-changing ritual, and he seems to need K'Anpo's hlp -- a 'push' -- to make the final change.

Regeneration isn't really taken for granted until "The Deadly Assassin" (14.3), and even here there were anomalies, as if Robert Holmes is being cagey about formalizing things. It's said that Time Lords can regenerate twelve times, the closest thing we've had to a "rule" so far, yet Runcible asks if the Doctor's had a 'face-lift' as if that's more likely than a full body change. (In retrospect we might assume that Runcible the Fatuous is just being casual about regeneration, but that doesn't seem to be the way the scene's written.)

For obvious reasons, "The Invasion of Time" (15.6) has to assume the existence of regeneration as a given in order for Boruse to return without actor Angus Mackay.

So I conflated what Miles and Wood said about "The Invasion of Time" with what they said about "The Deadly Assassin."

Later:

The fact remains that the only "normal" regeneration for the Doctor, the only one pitched as a routine rebirth-of-an-injured-body, is the last and least convincing of the entire BBC run; the moment at the start of "Time and the Rani" when the Sixth Doctor bangs his head on the TARDIS floor and becomes the Seventh, a metamorphosis so bland that it's accepted as a purely functional part of the programme. But it took twenty-three years to get that far.

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Whoever those guys are, they need to do better research. The word actually used in "The Power of the Daleks" was "renewal," not "rejuvenation."

You should argue with the essay, not my summary of it. Miles and Wood address every objection you've made.

And however famous they may be, the fact remains that their claim about what was stated in "The Power of the Daleks" (or Allyn's secondhand description of it) was inaccurate. I did provide my sources and evidence for the points I was actually making.

That's exactly what she (it is, she? right?) meant by "not my summary of it." Since she quoted from the first edition About Time 3, I'll do from the second (as she said, I don't think the article's changed that much from edition to edition):

In episode four of 4.2, "The Tenth Planet," and episode one of 4.3, "The Power of the Daleks," there's been no suggestion that it's normal for the Doctor to change his whole persona whenever he is injured. The word used in the script is renewal and even that comes from an incredulous comment made by Ben, to which the apparent newcomer responds with another question.

POLLY: Then you did change!
DOCTOR: Life depends on change and renewal.
BEN: Oh, so that's it. You've been renewed, have you?
DOCTOR: I've been renewed, have I? That's it. I've been renewed. It's part of the Tardis. Without it, I couldn't survive. Come here.

In short, yeah, in the future, make sure you actually, y'know, read what someone actually wrote as opposed to hearing from secondhand sources on the Internet before you accuse someone of being inaccurate and doing bad research.

 

[Christopher]

^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

That's exactly what she (it is, she? right?) meant by "not my summary of it."

I'm actually a "he," but it's a common assumption that people make and I'm used to that, so no offense taken.

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.

I'm saying that if you haven't actually read what's someone written, and whether it's accurate or not, it's a bit much to accuse them of doing poor research, a pretty big slap to the kind of work About Time is, one heavily based on research, because (as in this case) they could've actually been right the whole damn time. Rely on other people's summaries less.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.

Again, Christopher, you are arguing with my summary, not with the essay. Just so we're clear.

From the book, the three paragraphs that precede what I previously quoted, since we're clearly throwing Fair Use to the four winds...

We tend to forget, now, how the Hartnell/Troughton change was pitched to the original audience. In part four of "The Tenth Planet" and part one of "Power of the Daleks", there's no suggestion that it's normal for the Doctor to change his whole persona whenever he's injured. The word used in the script is renewal, and even that comes from an incredulous comment made by Ben, to which the apparent newcomer responds with another question. The Doctor isn't giving anything away at this stage, and his claim that the change is 'part of the TARDIS' hints that this isn't just some kind of biological super-power.

The implication, weird as it seems now, is clear: Patrick Troughton's Doctor is supposed to be an extension of William Hartnell's. Perhaps not simply a younger version, but at the very least they're aspects of the same identity, the Second Doctor drawing a parallel with a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

And there is a kind of logic there. At heart the First Doctor is just as mischevious as the Second, but too old, tired, and impatient to extol the virtues of anarchy in the way the Troughton version does (the original idea, according to then-script-editor Gerry Davis, was a "Jekyll and Hyde" transition). They're the same individual to a far greater extent than the Third and Fourth Doctors are, or the Fourth and Fifth, of the Fifth and Sixth, or the Sixth and Seventh. It should be remembered that Doctor Who Monthly -- the only half-reliable source of Doctor Who information, until the mid-80s boom in programme guides -- believed as late as 1982 that the First and Second Doctors were supposed to be the same man. A "Matrix Data Bank" column from that year informs its readers that they shouldn't confuse "regenerations" (e.g. Pertwee into Baker) with the "rejuvenation" of Hartnell into Troughton.

That was why I used "rejuvenation" instead of "renewal" pages back. It was a deliberate choice, not an error.

 

[Christopher]

I'm saying that if you haven't actually read what's someone written, and whether it's accurate or not, it's a bit much to accuse them of doing poor research, a pretty big slap to the kind of work About Time is, one heavily based on research, because (as in this case) they could've actually been right the whole damn time. Rely on other people's summaries less.

Okay, that was a poor choice of words. But the fact remains, the lines in the actual episode said nothing whatsoever about rejuvenation. That's the real point I was trying to make, and my poor choice of words was an unfortunate distraction from that.

(Actually what I was trying to do was to avoid sounding like I was blaming Allyn for the inaccuracy. I thought it would be less likely to provoke an argument if I made it clear that I wasn't directing my criticism at a fellow poster. But it backfired.)

 

[JoeZhang]

^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.

I'm saying that if you haven't actually read what's someone written, and whether it's accurate or not, it's a bit much to accuse them of doing poor research, a pretty big slap to the kind of work About Time is, one heavily based on research, because (as in this case) they could've actually been right the whole damn time. Rely on other people's summaries less.

Let's face it, this stuff can get confusing on the internet - where beings, who might have different faces but are likely the same entity, are being discussed.

 

[sidious618]

I can't believe we're arguing over renewal/rejuvenation/regeneration. About Time is a phenomenal set of books but it did get some small facts about the show wrong from time to time. Considering how many pages those books comprise, it's hardly a surprise that something would slip through the cracks.

 

[JoeZhang]

Since we are discussing such things, the TARDIS Eruditorum books are worth a look.

 

[sidious618]

Definitely. Great stuff. It's one of those books where even if you don't agree, it's still very thought provoking.

 

[Stevil2001]

As long as you don't fall asleep before you get to the end of the article.

I mean, I am sympathetic to his project, but man, he doesn't half go on.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

As long as you don't fall asleep before you get to the end of the article.

I mean, I am sympathetic to his project, but man, he doesn't half go on.

Agreed. There comes a point in some of the "TARDIS Eruditorum" articles where my eyes glaze over. I've never made it through the "Rose" entry, which he's said is the longest one, and in some of the more experimental entries the form gets in the way of the content. (The Interference entry is actually very good, but you wouldn't know it if you tried to read it the way it's presented.) Yet some articles, like the one on "The Five Faces of Doctor Who," that are stunning pieces of critique. I supported the Kickstarter, and I'm looking forward to having this series of footnotes to About Time on my shelf.

 

[Turbo]

That was indeed a great article. I'll have to check out more of that site.

As for the John Hurt Doctor...I think at this point I'm in the "something else" camp. An unknown regeneration between 8 and 9 seems too obvious to me.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

That was indeed a great article. I'll have to check out more of that site.

As for the John Hurt Doctor...I think at this point I'm in the "something else" camp. An unknown regeneration between 8 and 9 seems too obvious to me.

Plus it seems hypocritical for the Doctor that used the Moment to be seen as unworthy of the name while Ten who basically made sure it happened gets a pass on it.

Not to mention how anticlimactic it is to make the Hurt Doctor's horrible thing he did turn out to be something we already know about.

 

[Nick Ryder]

Yeah the more I think about it the "Hurt" Doctor feels like he may have been the man the Doctor was before he was the Doctor and why as the Doctor he's basically been "running" from it all this time. I'm thinking he did something "in the name of peace" that was so horrible and yet maybe so necessary that it shook him so much perhaps he even attempted to take his own life - BUT he regenerated into Hartnell (maybe as a much younger man - I mean who's to say that Hartnell's Doctor didn't live a very very long life as it was, establishing his reputation as the Doctor. After all, he knew he would regenerate. Why should Hartnell be the '1st' Doctor that we just happened to be following for the past 50 years. And really when you think about it - the Doctor has been doing this only for about 50 years - if we're to take all his other adventures as happening in real time sorta. Granted as a time traveler he could have spent centuries in one place, but from a "civilian" POV - the Blue Police box and the companions that followed the Doctor started in the 60s. Allegedly. We've never seen or heard of him taking on true 'companions' or 'assistants' and after all the 1st Doctor had a "Granddaughter" which is still leaving me to believe that he had spent a very long time either as Hartnell or... this 'not the Doctor, Doctor." that Hurt is - and the family came from him. Maybe the wife he had his granddaughter from (and presumably a daughter lol) was killed or he killed her because she was going all 'Master'

 

[Christopher]

Why should Hartnell be the '1st' Doctor that we just happened to be following for the past 50 years.

We've been told multiple times over the years that he was the first. The only story to imply that there were earlier Doctors was "The Brain of Morbius," but that was years after "The Three Doctors" had established him as the earliest incarnation of the Doctor. In "The Five Doctors" he said he was "the original, you might say." Various later Doctors, especially the past three, have been referred to by the corresponding numbers -- for instance, Dorium referring to "the Fall of the Eleventh" at Trenzalore.

Although, of course, the Doctor said that the Hurt incarnation was the one who broke the promise of the name "Doctor" and thus is not considered one of the Doctors, resolving the inconsistency. Still, in order for him to have broken the promise and been unworthy of the name, it seems he would've had to come after the Doctor had adopted the name and the promise that went with it; thus it seems unlikely that he preceded the First Doctor.

And really when you think about it - the Doctor has been doing this only for about 50 years - if we're to take all his other adventures as happening in real time sorta.

Except that in the '70s the Doctor generally said that he was in his 400s, but by the late '80s he was saying he was 900, a number the new series reused. And Eleven explicitly aged another 200 years before the end of last season; he's said to be 1100 now.

Personally I prefer not to take the age references too literally, since there are far too few gaps in the saga where the Doctor's without human companions long enough for decades or centuries to pass between aired episodes. But that last one is pretty unambiguous. And even though the Doctor claimed to be 900 from his sixth lifetime through his eleventh, a great deal of time certainly seems to have passed between the Seventh and Ninth Doctors.

 

[Nick Ryder]

If anything I would have thought the biggest age jump would have been between 10 and 11 since it seemed like 10 spent a lot of time roaming around the galaxy and time and generally going on his own merry way sans companions or at least companions we were told about. I mean hell he married 'Good Queen Bess' so... I mean let's face it, he could have lived with her for even the average life span of like 60-70 years - but its sorta quasi accepted that it was only a few years he spent traveling around

Time travelers are so funny that way. But what I find rather interesting really is that while he does seem to age - and frankly I have no problem with a couple hundred years passing here and there, but I do have a problem with basically the 11th being the "longest lived" Doctor of the bunch - with the exception of the 1st who - okay we're told he's the original - but you know Time Lord logic, "yes he was the first but first of what? First Doctor - yes. First me. No." Or for all we know the Doctor was his 'code name' before he took it as his real name.

Think fourth dimensionally. Personally a Doctor between 8 and 9 I dunno - 9 seemed pretty damaged so I suppose Hurt could have come from before his time - but at the same time - if it was 8.5 that put Gallifrey in Time Lock - and 'ended the war' then... why is 10 who basically KEPT the time lock intact not looked at as poorly - granted he died at the end of it all - but still. It was pretty clear the other Time Lords were pretty frickin' nuts and it wasn't such a bad thing that they're kept in Time Lock.

So I dunno... unless they're going to spring something and say that he was a time crisis dupe that sprung up and while he 'came from' the Doctor, he wasn't the Doctor and did some bad things... although what's more interesting. They specifically called the Doctor the Valeyard - who I thought everyone thought MAY have been an older form of the Doctor - although if that's the case - could the Hurt Doctor even be a POST 13 regeneration Doctor - like the Doctor had 13 regens and then thought he was dead for good and then Hurt pops out - saves the day doing something reeeally nasty maybe in the past - OR was the one that did the whole 'end the time war' thing... that resulted in the 9th coming around and somehow merged or was a memory echo... I dunno