"One of our chief engineers..."

[MikeS]

^ Sounds like a crisis situation to me.

 

[Timo]

It would be a crisis if the defective tap could no longer seal the keg and there was a leak ongoing...

I do wonder about "Booby Trap". Not only is LaForge given rather free hands with his solo approach to problem solving - Picard also seems to rely way too much on one line of inquiry. Why not have multiple teams working on the problem, from different viewpoints? Even if all the engineers were helping LaForge, Worf could take the security force to assault the killer asteroids on shuttlecraft or spacesuits; Crusher could devise ways to withstand the deadly radiation longer; and Data and Riker could seal themselves in the Ready Room to brainstorm crazy ideas. But the only progress reports we hear are from LaForge...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

^ Sounds like a crisis situation to me.

I saw the flaw in my statement after I clicked 'post', but I figured one of you would, correctly, correct me.

 

[matthunter]

I think the main issue was that the E-D was supposedly so huge (a "city in space") that she might require multiple personnel in the roles the original TOS crew filled - perhaps a chief engineer for the drive systems, one for the weapons, one for transporters/EPS/replicators...

The only split that made sense (subsequently ignored in the show but revived for DS9 and Star Trek Online) is the idea of a separate Tactical and Security Officer... being a hotshot in ship-to-ship combat does not bestow the skills needed to solve a murder or protect a visiting dignitary.

 

[Lance]

^ IMO it made sense for them to separate the roles on DS9 because Odo was like the local constabulary, whereas Eddington was Starfleet's security chief attaché at the station. It's worth noting that Eddington's position on the crew only became relevant after the Defiant got posted to DS9, so presumably a regular Starfleet security chief was until then just not a requirement, but the permanent presence of a Starfleet vessel meant it had to be done. One assumes that after Eddington went over to the dark side some other unseen Joe Schmoe became his replacement instead.

 

[Avro Arrow]

^ IIRC, Lt. Primmin had a similar position to Eddington well before the Defiant arrived at the station. He was only in a couple of episodes, though. I don't remember if it was stated up front that he would only be on the station temporarily, or if he was expected to become a recurring character.

But, yeah, separating the tactical officer role and the internal security officer role is generally a good idea, IMHO.

 

[Timo]

The only split that made sense (subsequently ignored in the show but revived for DS9 and Star Trek Online) is the idea of a separate Tactical and Security Officer...

Uh, why would that be a "split"? Kirk's Security Chiefs never did any Tactical stuff, or vice versa. And neither of these types of officer had any place on Kirk's bridge. Helm fired the phasers, usually, but "Arena" featured specialists called "tactical people" and "tactical aides" by the fake Commodore Travers; both gold and blue shirts were seen.

I'd agree that Primmin and his possible successors were Starfleet Security bosses on the station, but Sisko early on made that department subservient to Odo's, out of political concerns. Eddington was sent to break out of that mold, but when this backfired, other yellowshirt Lieutenants may have carried on in "Primmin style".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[varek]

Perhaps Riker was referring to Starfleet Command in general, rather than to the Enterprise itself. He had served on other ships before he arrived on the Enterprise.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"...is missing."

There. Finally got that out of my system.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

"...is missing."

There. Finally got that out of my system.

Thank you!!

 

[In_Correct]

This line, from Where No One Has Gone Before has always fascinated me:



TOS always seemed to imply one chief engineer, although maybe he was just the only one we saw. But this line implies that TNG has got several.

Now of course the line was evidently devised to explain away why every few episodes in TNG's first season the show had a new guy in charge of the engine room.

But...

1) Do we think this was maintained for the rest of TNG's run? Geordi becomes 'our' chief engineer for pretty much the every episode from season two onwards, but do we think maybe he's just the chief on one shift, and that Agyle and McDougal and Lynch are chiefs of different shifts to Geordi?

2) Or maybe, was the situation with more than one chief engineer a result of the Galaxy Class being so new? Maybe in that first year it was technically necessary to have multiple highly skilled technicians present for what is basically the shake-down cruise, and season two marks the point where they're satisfied that regular practice (one chief, maybe a smaller contingent of work crew, etc) can be implemented?

(TNG-Remastered replaced an Okudagram in "Galaxy's Child" with one inferring that Mcdougal and Lynch at least were still aboard as far as into TNG's fourth season, although given that's a recent addition then it's status within the canon must be seen as a little blurry?).

That line from a production point of view quickly explains why there is a different Chief Engineer . They already had Dr. Mark Piper from TOS disappear from The Enterprise after only one episode, so they probably did not want a senior officer disappear after just one episode yet again.

There was a woman on the early audition footage of TNG that I am almost positive that it is Brooke Bundy. But she didn't appear until the next episode. For whatever reason, she was not around during Where No One Was Gone Before. I guess since she was not officially part of the regular cast, they had a completely different Chief Engineer and they just quickly said that First Officer is in charge of Engineering, guided by "one of our" chief engineers. Apparently nobody in Engineering were trained to be Bridge Officers.

If you can believe Wil Wheaton, he said that the possible reason for this mix-up is because TNG production staff were going to launch a poll or survey asking people to vote on which Chief Engineer would become the permanent one. This backfired when they mailed the letters too early and many people didn't see the episodes yet. This caused stress for both candidates. MacDougal (Bundy) was never seen after The Naked Now, and Argyle (Yeager) returned to help construct Lore. This is a complete guess but when Frakes touched Yeager on his arm, shoulder, or back (can't exactly remember) I believe Frakes was thanking Yeager for appearing. They probably were having a hard time getting an Engineer for that episode, and they did not want a revolving door or Chief Engineers. It's too bad they didn't just leave it at Argyle and MacDougal but instead they brought in many more Engineers.

An In-Universe confirmation that there were indeed at least Two Chief Engineers at the same time was established in a (non-canon) book(s) stating that MacDougal & Argyle were there when the Enterprise was being constructed, under the command of Thomas Halloway. The Novelization of Encounter At Farpoint reveals that when Worf went to Chief Engineering, he talked to Argyle. And when Data said "Main Engineering reports that Maximum Acceleration can be maintained, At EXTREME Risk." that report came from Argyle. Considering that Bundy was in the Audition Footage yet Argyle was in the novelization, this means that The Enterprise had the same two simultaneous Chief Engineers for at least a year and a half. (2363 to part of 2364)

The two assistant chief engineers were Shimoda and Singh. One was apparently the assistant to MacDougal while the other was supposed to be the assistant to Argyle. Argyle did not appear in the episode "Lonely Among Us" but he was mentioned. And that guy from Engineering from "Hide And Q" on the intercom sounded very much like Argyle. This means that I believe that Argyle is the most common Chief Engineer on the Enterprise, and probably the main one. I can even accept both MacDougal and Argyle as two Chief Engineers.

As for Mr. Logan?! There was no other confirmation that he was really the Chief Engineer. He was probably some random jerk whose claims that he is Chief Engineer isn't any more valid than his claim that he is an expert at battle, far better at battle than Geordi. If that was true, then why isn't "Chief Engineer" Logan a tactical officer?! It is also quite odd for an officer to announce their job title when they say their name. (Even if Picard does, and Troi does, most of the officers do not.) MacDougal was said to be Chief Engineer by Wesley Crusher. Riker, Picard, and Data said that Argyle is Chief Engineer. I do not recall ANY endorsement for Logan. This makes me think that Logan was full of himself. And in that episode, Engineering was completely irrelevant! The only reason that Logan character existed was to bully Geordi!

Lieutenant Commander Leland T. Lynch was never established as Chief Engineer either. He was obviously a Chief Engineer, but they avoided saying it be cause of all the other Chief Engineers. He might have been a specialist in Dilithium Crystals. But Main Engineering was completely irrelevant in that episode. All he did was realign dilithium crystals and annoy Picard.

Trying to wrap this up, there is one last occurrence where a Chief Engineer SHOULD have been present: in the episode "Home Soil".

Many people don't like Argyle and any book author seems to kill him off. I still think that Logan is the worst Chief Engineer (if he actually is one) Even if Argyle seemed to be rude, the others were even worse.

I had always guessed that MacDougal and Argyle were sock of Wesley Crusher experimenting on the engines and left the ship during the episode 11001001.

However, there has been a Remasterd Okudagram in the episode "Galaxy's Child" with their names on the list, implying that they work the night and graveyard and "weekend" shift. Memory Alpha contains details that cannot possibly be explained in the Okudagram. I would like to see it.

Sorry about this very long post. But I have always been annoyed with all the cast changes (three navigator pilots in the first season, one with no proper training and another that worked Security more than he piloted) and the CMO changing in season 2, and of course the Chief Engineers. Also I had grown to hate Geordi once he became some emotional creep who read personal logs of everybody. I doubt any other engineer would have done this. (well, maybe Logan)

 

[In_Correct]

Here are a few comments about other things I saw in this thread:
Counselor Troi was much more of an associate of Captain Picard. A Legal Expert (The Ensigns Of Command) and a Mediator (The Price) because otherwise having a Ship's counselor on the bridge all the time wouldn't make sense.

Ship's Bartender, Guinan, is probably qualified to be Counselor, both as Legal Expert & Mediator, and as a Medical Therapist, or she wouldn't be able to get away with applying for the position as Ship's Counselor. If Guinan wasn't qualified, then Deanna would say "But you aren't even qualified!"

I never liked positions combined. So I agree when they said in DS9 they split the Tactical and Security. Of course the setting is a huge space station with lots of crime taking place on it, would require a large and full time security staff. There would meed to be a Tactical position for the station as it had weapons. Also The Defiant was stationed on the space station which required even more Security and Tactical. Also, in DS9 I liked seeing that Science officer and Operations officer were also split.

 

[Terok Nor]

I read something a long time ago about Argyle. Apparently the actor was told he'd become the permanent chief engineer if the character was popular with viewers. He then went about writing hundreds of letters to the production team pretending to be fans of Argyle. The problem being none of his episodes had aired yet. He was then dropped from the series. I don't know how true this is. Can anyone confirm or deny? I think it might have been Wil Wheaton who made this claim but I can't remember for certain.

Apparently the Primnn character in DS9 was going to be a stand in for O'Brien whenever Colm Meaney was away filming a movie. Being a security officer was secondary to him making up the numbers when they were a cast member down. I can only speculate that the reason this idea was dropped is because Primnn was a total douchebag.

 

[Paul Weaver]

I read something a long time ago about Argyle. Apparently the actor was told he'd become the permanent chief engineer if the character was popular with viewers. He then went about writing hundreds of letters to the production team pretending to be fans of Argyle. The problem being none of his episodes had aired yet. He was then dropped from the series. I don't know how true this is. Can anyone confirm or deny? I think it might have been Wil Wheaton who made this claim but I can't remember for certain.

It was Wil Wheaton

In reviewing "Where No One Has Gone Before" as part of Memories of the Future, Volume 1, Wil Wheaton (noting that his memory of the event may not be entirely accurate) recalled hearing that Argyle had been considered as a possible permanent chief engineer for the Enterprise-D. However, when producers began receiving letters encouraging that choice before the episode had aired, and some fans complained that they had been solicited by direct mailings to write in on the subject, this reportedly led to them changing their mind. (Memories of the Future, Volume 1, p. 63)

Poor bloke, they really didn't like him, killing him off 4 times.

According to the DC Comics comic book "Suspect", his first name was "Terence" and he was murdered around 2369 or 2370. However, according the current Pocket Books continuity, his first name was "Michael", and he was killed aboard the USS Excalibur during the Borg incursion of 2373. He was killed a third time (a second time involving the Borg) during a raid on Earth in "The Worst of Both Worlds", and was killed a fourth time by decapitation by Klingons in an alternate reality from the novel Q&A.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Looks like Argyle's first name should have been Kenny...

 

[Lance]

If the Remastered version of "Galaxy's Child" is to be taken at face value, then there's the possibility that Geordi's 'promotion' wasn't as big as any of us suspected, as he might simply be "one of the chief engineers" like Argyle and Macdougal, rather than being the bossman of engineering. Sure we don't see any of the others after season one, but that doesn't mean that the engine room isn't still being operated under a 'power sharing' deal as late as the TNG movies. Season 2 onwards might've just seen Geordi joining their ranks.

 

[westonallen0990]

I don't know, every episode seemed to have a different Chief Engineer in S1. It must have been different duty shifts and sometimes the Assistant Cheif Engineers, were likely referred to as Chief Engineer.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

You never know what ideas can be contributed by people, especially in a crisis situation. While hardly a crisis situation, quite a few years ago I was on a camping trip with a bunch of friends,. Turns out the beer keg for the weekend came with a defective, useless tap. What followed was an amazing session of banging ideas together. Utilizing available materials, and lots of ingenuity, about eight guys had manufactured a working keg tap. It was like a thirsty man's Apollo 13.

"I believe this is gonna be our finest hour."

 

[In_Correct]

There is a video game simulator project that gives you a virtual tour of The Enterprise D. (or at least Galaxy Class Starship) So far they gave a tour of the Main Shuttle Bay (near the bridge) which the Main Shuttle Bay IS HUGE. You would meed a Chief Engineer just for the shuttle bay! They also provided the Stairs, "Two Forward", the back door of the Observation Lounge, the Bridge Lavatory (with three sea shells) ... If The Galaxy Class star ship really is that bug, then it makes perfect sense for there to be multiple Chief Engineers. But the only ones we really get to see working in Engineering are Geordi (and Data).

 

[publiusr]

In the early episodes of TNG--the size of the Ent-D...the families--the scale was being stressed.

Later on, we focused on fewer people.


I seem to remember some talk about Scotty to become a captain of engineering on Excelsior.