Once and for all: should Wonder Woman be a lesbian?

[Nerys Myk]

It seems reasonable to her back story for her to be bi. In the start of her life she is immortal like the other Amazons, and is on this island/dimension for eternity as far as she and the other Amazons know. It seems odd that Hippolyta and the others will expect Diana to remain sexless for eternity (ironic given it's her status after she leaves). It would be reasonable for the Queen to expect Diana will want to explore her sexuality and that would be with other Amazons. The Greeks had no problem with the concept, and as much of the Amazons in the DC universe is a pastiche of ancient Greek culture it's reasonable to write them as accepting bi-sexual relations and for Diana to be comfortably bi-sexual.

But

She's always been written and a hetrosexual.

Not seeing the connection between my statement and Gov Kodos.

 

[Christopher]

I'm conflicted on Diana. I'm all for having more leading lesbian or bi characters in TV shows. On the other hand, if I had heard that they were making Diana gay in this, I might have to build an even bigger protective fort of cushions from which to watch this show than I'm already planning. Because there's so much scope for the execs to pander and get things horribly, hideously wrong. I want more lesbian relationships on my tellybox, but I want them done right and with respect.

Good point. Though I didn't realize we were talking specifically about the show.

Growing up on Themiscyra where there are lesbian couples, and no default gender-hierarchies it makes sense for her to be open to love and sex with the right people regardless of gender.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

She's always been written and a hetrosexual.

Because of censorship and community standards, of course. But times have changed.

On the other hand, William Moulton Marston's original WW comics stories made quite a big deal of the bondage & discipline play practiced among Amazons, with no men involved. It was kept implicit, of course, but it would be naive to assume that those depictions of fetish play among women were intended to be devoid of sexual subtext.

Her classic origin revolves around her attraction to Steve Trevor. I dont think being raised on an island of women would make her a lesbian.

Why does it have to be either-or? Human sexuality is a continuum, not merely a choice between column A and column B.

And SiorX is quite right -- people raised in an environment like Themyscira where gender is pretty much a non-issue in everyday life wouldn't have a strong sense of gender roles as a defining part of human identity. As mentioned above, the other Amazons had lives before, but Diana was born and raised in a society essentially free of gender role expectations. Therefore, she might not consider a person's gender to be particularly important to whether or how she pursued a relationship with them.

 

[Gaith]

I'm conflicted on Diana. I'm all for having more leading lesbian or bi characters in TV shows. On the other hand, if I had heard that they were making Diana gay in this, I might have to build an even bigger protective fort of cushions from which to watch this show than I'm already planning. Because there's so much scope for the execs to pander and get things horribly, hideously wrong. I want more lesbian relationships on my tellybox, but I want them done right and with respect.

And I'm conflicted on this view. On the one hand, I can see where you're coming from and why. On the other hand, heterosexuality is treated in pandering and disrespectful ways all the time, so I think it's kind of absurd to imagine that homosexuality will ever achieve full cultural acceptance without missteps along the way. Take TOS, for example. Uhura's role was tiny and subservient, reinforcing both the gender and ethnic roles of the time, but is that really worse than no representation at all? Obviously, if she were an over-the-top and negative characterization of a black woman, that might have been the case, but so long as the overall culture ignores minorities, I tend to think that depictions of such have to be pretty bad to be worse overall than continued silence.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She's always been written and a hetrosexual.

Because of censorship and community standards, of course. But times have changed.

On the other hand, William Moulton Marston's original WW comics stories made quite a big deal of the bondage & discipline play practiced among Amazons, with no men involved. It was kept implicit, of course, but it would be naive to assume that those depictions of fetish play among women were intended to be devoid of sexual subtext.

Bondage was a common theme in many comics. Giving WW a rope as a weapon does mean she used it, but did the other Amazons or was this mostly WW's enemies? ( male and female).

Her classic origin revolves around her attraction to Steve Trevor. I dont think being raised on an island of women would make her a lesbian.

Why does it have to be either-or? Human sexuality is a continuum, not merely a choice between column A and column B.

So you're in the Bi camp now?

And SiorX is quite right -- people raised in an environment like Themyscira where gender is pretty much a non-issue in everyday life wouldn't have a strong sense of gender roles as a defining part of human identity. As mentioned above, the other Amazons had lives before, but Diana was born and raised in a society essentially free of gender role expectations. Therefore, she might not consider a person's gender to be particularly important to whether or how she pursued a relationship with them.

Who's discussing gender roles? We're talking about which sex Diana is attracted to. Thats probably "hardwired" into her.

I was the one who mentioned Amazons had lives before Paradise Island. And I think they would carry aspects of those lives into exile and it would influence their culture ( which seems to be an extention of their pre-exile culture) "Traditional" gender roles in Amazon society would have already been eliminated prior to exile because of their culture anyway. They were already taking on traditional male roles by being soldiers/warriors, armorers, equestrians ect.

I think making WW a lesbian is too easy. Not unlike making Jericho gay, because he fits the "profile" I'd rather see a new character be the lesbian "posterchild" for comics. Let Batwoman carry the standard.

 

[Christopher]

On the other hand, William Moulton Marston's original WW comics stories made quite a big deal of the bondage & discipline play practiced among Amazons, with no men involved. It was kept implicit, of course, but it would be naive to assume that those depictions of fetish play among women were intended to be devoid of sexual subtext.

Bondage was a common theme in many comics. Giving WW a rope as a weapon does mean she used it, but did the other Amazons or was this mostly WW's enemies? ( male and female).

I'm not talking about fight scenes. Marston specifically showed the Amazons of Paradise Island engaging in play involving bondage, spanking, "slave" roleplay, and other dominance/submission dynamics.

http://www.shewired.com/PrintFriendly.cfm?ID=26677

It was all part of his message about the superiority of the female approach to power through "loving submission" over the male approach to power through force (as he saw it).

Why does it have to be either-or? Human sexuality is a continuum, not merely a choice between column A and column B.

So you're in the Bi camp now?

I don't understand the question. I think simplistic labels do more to impede understanding than to improve it.

Who's discussing gender roles? We're talking about which sex Diana is attracted to. Thats probably "hardwired" into her.

Not necessarily. I mean, heck, Diana was molded from clay by the Amazon queen and imbued with life by the Olympian gods. Her nature probably represents the ideals and expectations of those individuals -- and as remarked above, homosexuality was considered normative in Greek culture. Not to mention that the Olympian gods were some of the kinkiest beings in history.

I think making WW a lesbian is too easy.

And that's not what I'm advocating. I'm saying it's logical for her to be a person who, as a college friend of mine once said about herself, doesn't believe in ruling out the possibility of a relationship with someone just because of their sex.

I'd rather see a new character be the lesbian "posterchild" for comics. Let Batwoman carry the standard.

There shouldn't need to be a standard or a poster child. GLBT people aren't an issue or a cause, they're just people. It shouldn't be made an issue, it should be made a non-issue. Characters of all sexualities should be included without comment or preoccupation, should have their lives and their relationships treated in a normal, natural way regardless of their preferences -- neither avoided nor called attention to, but simply taken in stride.

 

[Nerys Myk]

On the other hand, William Moulton Marston's original WW comics stories made quite a big deal of the bondage & discipline play practiced among Amazons, with no men involved. It was kept implicit, of course, but it would be naive to assume that those depictions of fetish play among women were intended to be devoid of sexual subtext.

Bondage was a common theme in many comics. Giving WW a rope as a weapon does mean she used it, but did the other Amazons or was this mostly WW's enemies? ( male and female).

I'm not talking about fight scenes. Marston specifically showed the Amazons of Paradise Island engaging in play involving bondage, spanking, "slave" roleplay, and other dominance/submission dynamics.

http://www.shewired.com/PrintFriendly.cfm?ID=26677

I think that link supports what I said. Most of the images aren't of the Amazons.

I don't understand the question. I think simplistic labels do more to impede understanding than to improve it.

I really hate when the quote fuction drops quotes.

You seem to be supporting the idea that Diana is "bi-sexual." ( a simplisitic lable I guess)

Not necessarily. I mean, heck, Diana was molded from clay by the Amazon queen and imbued with life by the Olympian gods. Her nature probably represents the ideals and expectations of those individuals -- and as remarked above, homosexuality was considered normative in Greek culture. Not to mention that the Olympian gods were some of the kinkiest beings in history.

I'm no expert on Greek homosexuality, but I dont think there was unanimity its approval across the various City States. And their attitudes toward male and female homosexuality might have been different. IIRC, even their concept of male homosexuality differed from our modern take.

There shouldn't need to be a standard or a poster child. GLBT people aren't an issue or a cause, they're just people. It shouldn't be made an issue, it should be made a non-issue. Characters of all sexualities should be included without comment or preoccupation, should have their lives and their relationships treated in a normal, natural way regardless of their preferences -- neither avoided nor called attention to, but simply taken in stride.

Which is a nice sentiment and one I agree with, but the fact remains the character will become a standard bearer.

 

[Christopher]

I think that link supports what I said. Most of the images aren't of the Amazons.

Did you read the words or just look at the pictures? It's the text that supports my point.

You seem to be supporting the idea that Diana is "bi-sexual." ( a simplisitic lable I guess)

I'm suggesting that she would be above such labels. I won't undermine that point by agreeing to reduce it to a label.

I think Diana is someone who is capable of loving all human beings without exclusion, and who is capable of expressing love through physical intimacy.

I'm no expert on Greek homosexuality, but I dont think there was unanimity its approval across the various City States. And their attitudes toward male and female homosexuality might have been different. IIRC, even their concept of male homosexuality differed from our modern take.

That's a fair point. Actually, now that I refresh my memory, Greek culture was a lot more intolerant of lesbian sexuality than male homosexuality (even though the word "lesbian" is named for Lesbos, home of the poet Sappho). But then, Greeks were pretty fiercely misogynistic in general, feeling that men should be free to do whatever they wanted and women should be pretty much the property of men. So female sexual independence in any form was frowned upon.

But then, that's all the more reason to expect lesbianism to be accepted by the Amazons, who after all were escapees from Greek oppression in the DC version, and thus should embody opposition to Greek values (as, indeed, the original myth of the Amazons as enemies of the Greeks represented the anathema of women's "rightful" subordinate place in Greek society).

 

[Gov Kodos]

I think that link supports what I said. Most of the images aren't of the Amazons.

Did you read the words or just look at the pictures? It's the text that supports my point.

You seem to be supporting the idea that Diana is "bi-sexual." ( a simplisitic lable I guess)

I'm suggesting that she would be above such labels. I won't undermine that point by agreeing to reduce it to a label.

I think Diana is someone who is capable of loving all human beings without exclusion, and who is capable of expressing love through physical intimacy.

I'm no expert on Greek homosexuality, but I dont think there was unanimity its approval across the various City States. And their attitudes toward male and female homosexuality might have been different. IIRC, even their concept of male homosexuality differed from our modern take.

That's a fair point. Actually, now that I refresh my memory, Greek culture was a lot more intolerant of lesbian sexuality than male homosexuality (even though the word "lesbian" is named for Lesbos, home of the poet Sappho). But then, Greeks were pretty fiercely misogynistic in general, feeling that men should be free to do whatever they wanted and women should be pretty much the property of men. So female sexual independence in any form was frowned upon.

But then, that's all the more reason to expect lesbianism to be accepted by the Amazons, who after all were escapees from Greek oppression in the DC version, and thus should embody opposition to Greek values (as, indeed, the original myth of the Amazons as enemies of the Greeks represented the anathema of women's "rightful" subordinate place in Greek society).

Except Sparta, most Greek city states were shocked by the Spartan women, exercising in public, free to engage in sex, damn thigh flashing hussies they were.

Marston was quite explicit about the bondage and the Amazon love of bondage games. It's only after him, that the bondage issue is used to make a damsel in distress of Wonder Woman through the Silver and Bronze age comics. For Marston's Wonder Woman it was a fun little challenge. There is a pretty good article here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=7921

Wonder Woman sums it up here

and here

I'd say the only thing holding Marston back from portraying women having sexual relations was the time he was living in. I don't expect DC would be any likelier to go there today, either.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think that link supports what I said. Most of the images aren't of the Amazons.

Did you read the words or just look at the pictures? It's the text that supports my point.

Both, those I'm curious as why the author couldn't find images that fit better with the text

You seem to be supporting the idea that Diana is "bi-sexual." ( a simplisitic lable I guess)

I'm suggesting that she would be above such labels. I won't undermine that point by agreeing to reduce it to a label.

I think Diana is someone who is capable of loving all human beings without exclusion, and who is capable of expressing love through physical intimacy.

Yes that would be true, especially of the Perez version. Still she's been shown to be attracted to men, even in that version.

I'm no expert on Greek homosexuality, but I dont think there was unanimity its approval across the various City States. And their attitudes toward male and female homosexuality might have been different. IIRC, even their concept of male homosexuality differed from our modern take.

That's a fair point. Actually, now that I refresh my memory, Greek culture was a lot more intolerant of lesbian sexuality than male homosexuality (even though the word "lesbian" is named for Lesbos, home of the poet Sappho). But then, Greeks were pretty fiercely misogynistic in general, feeling that men should be free to do whatever they wanted and women should be pretty much the property of men. So female sexual independence in any form was frowned upon.

But then, that's all the more reason to expect lesbianism to be accepted by the Amazons, who after all were escapees from Greek oppression in the DC version, and thus should embody opposition to Greek values (as, indeed, the original myth of the Amazons as enemies of the Greeks represented the anathema of women's "rightful" subordinate place in Greek society).

I'm not saying that the Amazons dont accept lesbianism, just that Diana (an individual Amazon) prefers men. Lesbian relationships have been included in the more recent takes on the DCU Amazons.

The DCU Amazons seem more Greek than their mythological counterparts, speaking a dialect of Ancient Greek and worshiping the full Greek Pantheon.

 

[Christopher]

Yes that would be true, especially of the Perez version. Still she's been shown to be attracted to men, even in that version.

Which is hardly incompatible with what I said about her being able to have feelings for a person regardless of gender. Just because she hasn't been shown in a relationship with a woman, that's not evidence that she's incapable of it -- just that the writers of her comics have avoided depicting things that would run afoul of the censorship of the time, just as Marston did. And I have a hard time believing she could've grown up on Themyscira without even experimenting with her fellow Amazons from time to time.

See, you keep trying to reduce this to a choice between absolute categories -- "lesbian," "bi," "prefers men" -- and in so doing you're consistently missing my point. It's that very insistence on defining sexuality in terms of cubbyholes and labels and exclusions that I don't consider to be applicable here. I think Diana would be attracted to people -- to their souls, their hearts, their character. Whether they were male or female wouldn't be a major issue to her. If the people she's been shown to be interested in have all happened to be male, that's not inconsistent with that interpretation. A random flip of the coin can have a run of all heads yet still be random; the very nature of randomness is that it rules nothing out. (Walter Bishop argued otherwise on Fringe last week, but in fact the odds of getting heads 10 flips in a row are only 1 in 1024, unusual but hardly impossible.) My point is simply that I don't think she chooses them primarily because they're male, that I don't think she would consciously define herself as a person unwilling or unable to be involved with another woman if she met one that she had a special affinity with.

After all, you can't always assume that the people someone actually ends up falling in love with constitute a statistically perfect representation of their preferences, because there are a lot of situational factors involved too, the happenstance of who they actually have opportunities to meet; and of course most people are attracted to more than one single variable in other people. Case in point: In principle, I'm quite fond of, well, Power Girl-esque proportions in women, but nearly all the women I've actually fallen in love with in my life have been small- or medium-chested. Simply by the luck of the draw, the women whose faces, personalities, spirits, etc. have captured my affections the most strongly have not happened to have ample chests.

So by the same token, it's entirely possible that a woman could be perfectly able and willing to enter into intimate relationships with both men and women, but simply hasn't yet met a woman who captures her affections in that way. After all, if she doesn't care about the sex of her partners, she'd have no incentive to actively seek out an equal number of both sexes. She'd just let her heart go where it wanted to go and not care about male/female ratios.

 

[23skidoo]

Portraying Wonder Woman as a lesbian would miss the entire point of the character as set out by Bill Moulton back in the 1940s. She is a renegade, a rebel, an outcast from her society - one of the reasons being she WASN'T a lesbian. Or, to be more precise, she came from a race of asexual people and she started getting the urges when Steve Trevor landed on the island. I've nothing against the idea of a lesbian superheroine, but in the case of Wonder Woman it just makes sense for her not to be one, based upon the very concept of the character.

Some other points: remember WW was created asexually. Her mom carved her from clay; she wasn't created in the normal fashion. Also, based on some interpretations of the amazons on Paradise Island/Thesescura (or however that's spelled) when they're referred to as Diana's SISTERS, the word is to be taken literally. I'll just leave that point where it lies.

Alex

 

[JoeZhang]

Where's the on-panel evidence she even has genitals?

 

[Christopher]

Portraying Wonder Woman as a lesbian would miss the entire point of the character as set out by Bill Moulton back in the 1940s. She is a renegade, a rebel, an outcast from her society - one of the reasons being she WASN'T a lesbian. Or, to be more precise, she came from a race of asexual people and she started getting the urges when Steve Trevor landed on the island. I've nothing against the idea of a lesbian superheroine, but in the case of Wonder Woman it just makes sense for her not to be one, based upon the very concept of the character.

Like I said, it strikes me as a little naive to look at Marston's portrayal of bondage and spanking games and slave roleplay among the Amazons and interpret it as "asexual." Although I guess it comes down to whether you prefer to notice the subtext or to ignore it. Which is kind of the point of subtext, that it can be embraced or overlooked at the reader's discretion. Certainly it was possible to read it as asexual, for the books couldn't have gotten published otherwise; but the subtext was definitely there, and given Marston's personal proclivities, it was surely intentional.

So I'm willing to grant that a reading of Wonder Woman as a rebellious heterosexual within an asexual society is possible and even valid, but I do not agree that it is the only valid reading or that any variant reading would be "missing the point." I think it is a selective reading based on a preference for text over subtext -- just as my reading is based on a preference for embracing the subtext. Neither one of us is "missing the point" -- we're simply choosing differently among the alternative readings that are allowed by the content of the work. "The concept of the character" includes elements that can be taken as justification for an asexual interpretation, a heterosexual interpretation, or a bisexual interpretation of Diana, depending on the selectiveness and preferences of the reader. So it's fine if you want to assert your own preferred interpretation, but it's arrogant to insist your preference represents the creator's intent.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I don't think 23Skidoo was coming from a stance of arrogance when he posted. He also never states in the post that it was his preference when he was interpreting the creator's intention for the character. In fact I thought it was a pretty respectful post.

 

[Christopher]

^Sorry, but I don't think it's respectful to dismiss alternate interpretations as "missing the point."

 

[Admiral_Young]

I didn't take anything he posted as being arrogantly dismissive of the suggestion that Diana was a lesbian. In fact he stated that he had nothing against the notion.

By the way since I've posted in the thread, I voted for "I don't care". I really don't care what Diana's sexual preference is either way as long as the stories are well written and entertaining, this is from someone who was raised by lesbians. Wonder Woman and thus by extension any other character can be depicted and interpreted in anyway by whoever is writing them at the time. That's what makes these characters so great.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I don't care about her sexual orientation as long as she's portrayed as a sexual being, and not a Virgin Mary analogue.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

This thread is full of interesting ideas that are far too interesting for network TV. Wonder Woman will not be a lesbian or a feminist icon or a crypto-dominatrix because it will scare some of the audience and all of the advertisers. She will be a nice average girl who has a secret identity as a vigilante, but not the scary violent Batman kind, more like the cute, boring, toothless kind we see on The Cape.

I'm already changing the channel.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

people raised in an environment like Themyscira where gender is pretty much a non-issue in everyday life wouldn't have a strong sense of gender roles as a defining part of human identity.

Are we talking about "gender roles" or "sexual orientation"? The latter is what causes a person's sex drive and is hardwired at birth. The former determines who does the dishes.

I'm heterosexual. I wouldn't be any less so if I were raised on a island full of women. What I would be is both grumpy and even less inclined to do the dishes than I am now. I'd get off the damn island at the first opportunity and find me a guy who will do the dishes after having wild-ass sex. (Note careful placement of hyphen.)

 

[Gaith]

This thread is full of interesting ideas that are far too interesting for network TV. Wonder Woman will not be a lesbian or a feminist icon or a crypto-dominatrix because it will scare some of the audience and all of the advertisers. She will be a nice average girl who has a secret identity as a vigilante, but not the scary violent Batman kind, more like the cute, boring, toothless kind we see on The Cape.

I'm already changing the channel.

I see that as the most likely outcome as well. The show takes no risks, dies fast, and people still wonder why WW can't seem to catch on.

I'm heterosexual. I wouldn't be any less so if I were raised on a island full of women.

With respect, I don't think that's a credible statement; our childhoods are just too formative to be summarily dismissed like that.