On Andorians in Starfleet post-2383 [SPOILERS for RAISE THE DAWN]

[rfmcdpei]

One of the plot elements of Martin's forthcoming Fallen Gods is going to be the desire, by Starfleet and by the government of newly-independent Andor, to remove Starfleet's Andorian officers from Starfleet ranks.

My reaction when I heard of this plot item was incredulity. Why would Starfleet purge itself of its Andorian officers, just because the Andorian state left the Federation? I wanted a good explanation for this.

Ensign th'Shant, late of Deep Space Nine, may have provided a justification. One of the two-thirds of the Andorian crewmen in Starfleet who didn't leave, and by all appearances of a perfectly respectable member in good standing of Starfleet, he went on to set the bombs which destroyed the first Deep Space Nine and killed more than a thousand people in so doing. Worse, before he set the bombs he had passed an entirely routine security check--in fact, it was the routine security check that made a man decide the Federation was irredeemably racist towards his species and then take orders from his homeworld to plant bombs for the benefit of an alliance hostile to the Federation.

Th'Shant's actions may have changed everything for Andorians serving in Starfleet despite their homeworld's independence. Starfleet generally prefers its members to be citizens of the Federation, for obvious security reasons. If some Starfleeters come from a member-state that secedes from the Federation that's one thing; if the member-state inches towards alliances with powers hostile to the Federation, that's quite another; but, if apparently normal and loyal Starfleeters can break and decide to plant bombs when they get normal security checks, employing people from this former member-state in Starfleet starts to look like a very bad idea. If only to avoid more incidents that could place further strain on the Federation-Andorian relationship, both government might well collaborate to withdraw Andorians from Starfleet service.

Thoughts?

 

[TerraUnam]

Andor has been the odd-man out in Trek fiction. Humans and Vulcans have interbred with other species (and each other) like rabbits. No evidence for Tellarites, but they're still in the Federation. Andor's unique gender paradigm has prevented Andoprian/interspecies offspring, according to the books. That would put them distinctly at odds with the practice in most other Federation worlds. I would think it would make them more "inward" looking and generally less tolerant of outsiders than say, Earth, which by the 24th Century has had two centuries of genetic "upload" into the human gene pool, and therefore would be an extremely open society.

It's one thing to be part of an interstellar political union; it's quite another to have aliens as your in-laws and your grandchildren having non-human physical and cultural traits.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Th'Shant's actions may have changed everything for Andorians serving in Starfleet despite their homeworld's independence. Starfleet generally prefers its members to be citizens of the Federation, for obvious security reasons. If some Starfleeters come from a member-state that secedes from the Federation that's one thing; if the member-state inches towards alliances with powers hostile to the Federation, that's quite another; but, if apparently normal and loyal Starfleeters can break and decide to plant bombs when they get normal security checks, employing people from this former member-state in Starfleet starts to look like a very bad idea. If only to avoid more incidents that could place further strain on the Federation-Andorian relationship, both government might well collaborate to withdraw Andorians from Starfleet service.

Thoughts?

If it was the Andorian government which *ordered* those bombs to be placed, then I would hardly be surprised if Starfleet asks all Andorians to leave the fleet. I'm not saying that'd be the right thing to do, just understandable.

Assuming word got out that the bombs were placed on orders from Andor itself, then how could existing Andorian Starfleet officers ever be trusted again? As you said, th'Shant passed the security check...

I honestly had no idea that Andor was this hostile. Secession is one thing, but terrorism is quite another. Actually, scratch that...it's a declaration of war, is what it is.

Shran's got to be spinning in his grave right about now.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Andor has been the odd-man out in Trek fiction. Humans and Vulcans have interbred with other species (and each other) like rabbits. No evidence for Tellarites, but they're still in the Federation. Andor's unique gender paradigm has prevented Andoprian/interspecies offspring, according to the books. That would put them distinctly at odds with the practice in most other Federation worlds. I would think it would make them more "inward" looking and generally less tolerant of outsiders than say, Earth, which by the 24th Century has had two centuries of genetic "upload" into the human gene pool, and therefore would be an extremely open society.

If humans and Bajorans and Trill and Betazoids are all interfertile with technological assistance, or even without technological assistance--never mind copper-bloooded Vulcanoids for the moment--then it follows that they are no more distinctive genetically than the different sub-populations of hominin which merged to produce homo sapiens sapiens. (At most, they're separate subspecies.)Having the Andorians stand out indefinitely in the context of an emerging Federation super-species is going to have an effect.

 

[rfmcdpei]

If it was the Andorian government which *ordered* those bombs to be placed, then I would hardly be surprised if Starfleet asks all Andorians to leave the fleet. I'm not saying that'd be the right thing to do, just understandable.

Assuming word got out that the bombs were placed on orders from Andor itself, then how could existing Andorian Starfleet officers ever be trusted again? As you said, th'Shant passed the security check...

All we know is that th'Shant was approached by a friend from Andor who wanted him to plant bombs on Deep Space 9 on behalf of the Typhon Pact. Who was this friend? We don't know.

Raise the Dawn establishes that Starfleet and the Federation will be treating th'Shant and his trial very carefully, so as to avoid a further breakdown in Federation-Andorian relations. I can easily imagine that, for all of these precautions, the trial could make things considerably worse. The Federation will want to know who on Andor helped the Typhon Pact. Will Andorians, who see the Typhon Pact as having saved their species from the Federation's neglect, cooperate?

I honestly had no idea that Andor was this hostile. Secession is one thing, but terrorism is quite another. Actually, scratch that...it's a declaration of war, is what it is.

If the Andorian government doesn't fully cooperate with the Federation in determining who set th'Shant up with the bombs etc., even if the Andorian government isn't involved, a chain of events leading to Starfleet discharging its Andorian officers to avoid Deep Space 9's reoccurrence is sadly plausible.

Shran's got to be spinning in his grave right about now.

Indeed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation will want to know who on Andor helped the Typhon Pact. Will Andorians, who see the Typhon Pact as having saved their species from the Federation's neglect, cooperate?

We can only hope. Am I right in thinking there is still a sizable pro-Federation faction on Andor? The vote for secession wasn't a landslide, was it? So there's still hope.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The Federation will want to know who on Andor helped the Typhon Pact. Will Andorians, who see the Typhon Pact as having saved their species from the Federation's neglect, cooperate?

We can only hope. Am I right in thinking there is still a sizable pro-Federation faction on Andor? The vote for secession wasn't a landslide, was it? So there's still hope.

The majority was described as not unanimous, but decisive. It sounds to me like pro-Federation sentiment collapsed after the revelation that the Federation had useful data from the Shedai archived away where no one could get at it.

Anyhow. If the description of Martin's book is to be trusted, the breakdown in Federation-Andorian relations did indeed progress to the point of total breakdown, or at least to the point of making Andorians in Starfleet personae non grata.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I too was surprised to read on the Fallen Gods blurb that attitudes had apparently deteriorated to the point that any and all Andorians in Starfleet were under suspicion or, at least, under pressure to leave the service. Keeping in mind that we can't fully trust a blurb, it still seemed a bit extreme even if I went with the more conservative assumption as to what was being implied. As ever, rfmcdpei, your speculations here make sense to me – th’Shant’s contribution to the disaster at Deep Space Nine provides a plausible justification for the idea that Andor and the Federation might collaborate in removing Andorians from the fleet. Which is very sad, of course. I suppose it’s a combination of a cautious desire to keep things destabilizing further by removing the very opportunity for further incidents, and the old idea that “a man can’t serve two masters”. However, it’s really more like children of divorcing parents being told they have to choose between those parents, isn’t it? I can certainly see Andor and the Council taking the easy way out and completely segregating Andorians from the Federation to avoid further hostilities, though I’ll be saddened if they do. To borrow from something Mr Laser Beam says upthread, I can understand why they’d take that position, but I wouldn't think they were right to do it.

Poor Andorians. I recall Ro's musings on the culture in This Gray Spirit (pretty sure it was This Gray Spirit; one of the early-mid relaunch novels, anyway). She noted that the Andorian tendency to rage and violence was rooted not in malice or in nature, but in pain - and thus was something she sympathized with. The Andorians have been defined in the novels by quiet desperation, underlying frustration – in fact, Enterprise played them a similar way, if for different reasons, which just contributes further to the idea that this is a culture often being pushed to boiling point by sheer frustrated anger. Within the arc of the DS9 relaunch, we’ve seen that anger start to lead them to dangerous places, even as they became more and more insular, and to some extent even I find myself blaming the Federation a little. Didn’t you notice? Were you so caught up in welcoming all the newer members of the group, trusting in your (indeed admirable) policy of member sovereignty, that you didn’t pay enough attention to your old partner? I’m suddenly picturing these worlds as Hetalia-esque personifications, funnily enough. Andor’s withdrawing, and he’s in increasingly bad shape. He’s angry, uncommunicative, bitter...but do the others truly see it? Oh, he’s just wants some time alone...we’re not his parents, we won’t impose...

I think of Bacco’s sheer shock in Paths of Disharmony, when the secession plan is announced to her, and of her earlier “yeah, yeah, like you’d really do it” response in Zero Sum Game (which was understandable; after all, Alpha Centauri and Bolarus and others all made mostly hollow threats that went nowhere, and then there was Zalda’s spat...which has retrospectively become sort of a trial run for Andor, hasn't it?...those Tholians...). Offhand dismissal made some degree of sense...but it wasn't wise. We know Bacco and the Federation were truly invested in Andor - Paths of Disharmony made that quite clear - but did anyone realize just how bad things had gotten there? I suppose the Federation did everything it could, and it's not like Andor is its only priority, and yet there remains a slight sense that they did drop the ball on this one, and it's only now becoming clear how much so.

As a reader, I think it's sad watching Andor's relationship with its allies go sour, but really, the current anger at the Federation is piling on top of pre-existing anger. There’s long-simmering frustration at the seeming inevitability of losing their future, or at the very least their identity. With the Borg invasion, the dilemma that was posed in Paradigm – to die as you are or live as something else – has corroded into something darker: the knowledge that you’re going to lose either way. As I see it, the Andorians were already resentful – it’s just that their resentment didn’t have a target – how could it? What’s happening to them is no-one’s fault. But I recall Shar reflecting sourly on the wormhole aliens’ relationship with Bajor in Paradigm, thinking "where are Andor's prophets?" There’s a hint of something ugly there, for all that Shar is not an ugly person – Why us? Why are they okay and we’re not? That generalized resentment without a target...perhaps there’s always a danger that it could turn you against people who don't deserve it, and you’ll be too mad to deny yourself the chance to let it all out.

We know lots of Andorians were angry with the Federation following the Meta-Genome revelations, and were demanding answers, but many of them, once they’d calmed down, would have surely listened to the Federation's efforts to defend itself, as hurt as they were (indeed, the possibility of reconsidering the secession is addressed in Paths of Disharmony’s conclusion). But it’s clear some of them are just too angry to be rational, and I think part of the reason they’ve become so anti-Federation is only partially because of the Shedai revelations – there’s also something deeper. They turn on their friends because they need a context for their incredible pain, and because those familiar to you often, sadly, offer the best target. At least that’s how I choose to see this (and I admit this is my highly personal response to what I'm reading). Ro was right - too much pain, slowly eating away at the Andorian culture, ever since we first saw them fleshed out in Avatar. I think that's why this is all blowing up in the Federation's face so badly. Some of the Andorians are lashing out at the first actual target they have for a rage that’s been nurturing in them for a long time.

So, when I read comments like this:

I honestly had no idea that Andor was this hostile.

Shran's got to be spinning in his grave right about now.

I think “I totally agree”...and I also think I understand how it could happen. I hope those Andorians who haven’t succumbed can turn their culture around, help their fellows get back on track.

When all the stars are falling down
Into the sea and on the ground,
And angry voices carry on the wind,
A beam of light will fill your head
And you'll remember what's been said
By all the good men this world's ever known.
Another man is what you'll see,
Who looks like you and looks like me,
And yet somehow he will not feel the same,
His life caught up in misery, he doesn't think like you and me,
'Cause he can't see what you and I can see.

Really, I think the Andorians are one of the most tragic cultures in the Trek universe, given where the novels have taken them. And I say this as a big fan of the Trek lit interpretation of the race, and of the secession plotline. I look forward to seeing how Fallen Gods handles the struggles of Pava and other Andorians who don’t want to choose between Andor and the UFP.

 

[rfmcdpei]

We know lots of Andorians were angry with the Federation following the Meta-Genome revelations, and were demanding answers, but many of them, once they’d calmed down, would have surely listened to the Federation's efforts to defend itself, as hurt as they were (indeed, the possibility of reconsidering the secession is addressed in Paths of Disharmony’s conclusion). But it’s clear some of them are just too angry to be rational, and I think part of the reason they’ve become so anti-Federation is only partially because of the Shedai revelations – there’s also something deeper. They turn on their friends because they need a context for their incredible pain, and because those familiar to you often, sadly, offer the best target. At least that’s how I choose to see this (and I admit this is my highly personal response to what I'm reading). Ro was right - too much pain, slowly eating away at the Andorian culture, ever since we first saw them fleshed out in Avatar. I think that's why this is all blowing up in the Federation's face so badly. Some of the Andorians are lashing out at the first actual target they have for a rage that’s been nurturing in them for a long time.

That's it.

From the non-Andorian perspective, mind, this hostility is completely irrational and is likely to be taken as a sign of baffling ingratitude. ("We tried to help them and this is how we get repaid?") A breakdown in Federation-Andorian relations is sadly plausible.

 

[Therin of Andor]

"Aw, c'mon guys, it was only a little bomb..."


Therin and Tharrah, your cruise directors by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

 

[Sjaddix]

i would think the answer would be fear of spying, sabotage and information leaks. With the Typhon Pact about dangerous time.

 

[Thestral]

If Starfleet uses one nutcase as a justification for drumming out all Andorian officers, th'Shant will be closer to right than anybody wants to admit.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

 

[zarkon]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

Leaving aside my personal feelings about this storyline... you think that if a species government is hostile, then penalising every member of that race serving in your exploratory & defence force is just?

 

[Therin of Andor]

In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.

You mean like expelling all Muslims might prevent another 9/11, or sending all gays to an island was supposed to somehow prevent the spread of HIV? Or putting all Asian-looking citizens in the USA into internment camps in 1942 made the US a safer place during the War?

Surely the purpose of this ST storyline is to get readers thinking. Not wholeheartedly approving stupid knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

Leaving aside my personal feelings about this storyline... you think that if a species government is hostile, then penalising every member of that race serving in your exploratory & defence force is just?

It's not about being 'just' or managing one's feelings.
It's about the fact starfleet can't trust the andorian personnel not to blow up the odd station or ships, committing various other acts of espionage, sabotage, terrorism, etc. And about the fact its security checks are demonstrated as useless.

Starfleet's primary mission is to protect the federation, not make sure it doesn't hurt someone's feelings regardless of catastrophic outcomes.


Therin of Andor
Go easier with the straw-men.

 

[ToddCam]

Hetalia-esque

Nasat, I liked you before, but now I love you! Hetalia reference on a Star Trek board... wow!

 

[Thestral]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

Similar justifications ("It's for protecting ____ because those people will follow the orders of their crazy masters") have been used for racist or otherwise unjust actions throughout history.

So far as Starfleet knows he was acting alone within Starfleet; obviously he had civilian support, but we don't even know it was entirely Andorian. And he most certainly was depicted as a nutcase, a stark raving looney in fact going on about racism motivating the security check on him.

It's about the fact starfleet can't trust the andorian personnel not to blow up the odd station or ships, committing various other acts of espionage, sabotage, terrorism, etc. And about the fact its security checks are demonstrated as useless.

Switch "starfleet" for "America" and "andorian" for "Muslim" and you sound like a paranoid right winger wanting to kick all the dirty A-Rabs out of the military. In other words, a racist.

 

[Sjaddix]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

Leaving aside my personal feelings about this storyline... you think that if a species government is hostile, then penalising every member of that race serving in your exploratory & defence force is just?

I do its Security. All in all I would expect the average Andorian to be more loyal to their homeworld and their species then I would to the Federation. Especially seeing as the Federation kinda screwed them. Still I don't think this is unique to the Andorians, all in all I expect that most individuals of any species would be more loyal to their species in the end then to Federation if these two groups ever came into opposition.

Although I think the scariest part is he past his Psych Evals and set off no warning bells until he got this job done.

Still it seems the Andorians also want all Andorians back so the Federation and Andor are in agreement.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

Similar justifications ("It's for protecting ____ because those people will follow the orders of their crazy masters") have been used for racist or otherwise unjust actions throughout history.

There were ethnic cleansings/etc motivated by racism and justified by 'for protection' propaganda in history, yes.

This time, in the trekverse, not so (not even close) - see my post you quoted regarding the reasons for the decision.
And regarding the decision - there's a BIG difference between firing employees and ethnic cleansing/other atrocities motivated by racism with 'for protection' propaganda.

So far as Starfleet knows he was acting alone within Starfleet; obviously he had civilian support, but we don't even know it was entirely Andorian. And he most certainly was depicted as a nutcase, a stark raving looney in fact going on about racism motivating the security check on him.

We know he acted on orders from Andor.

As for his depiction as mentally unstable:
The only basis you have for this very convenient classification is: he came to the conclusion that the federation is not his ally, but his enemy - based on less than convincing arguments.

Well, Kestrel, you can say the same thing about the majority of andorians these days. I doubt you want to classify them as nutcases, though - it's not very convenient for the argument you try to shoehorn in.

It's about the fact starfleet can't trust the andorian personnel not to blow up the odd station or ships, committing various other acts of espionage, sabotage, terrorism, etc. And about the fact its security checks are demonstrated as useless.

Switch "starfleet" for "America" and "andorian" for "Muslim" and you sound like a paranoid right winger wanting to kick all the dirty A-Rabs out of the military. In other words, a racist.

You look quite the paranoid, ignorant right winger yourself, Kestrel:

For your rant to have any validity, a decisive majority of muslims must be of the fundamentalist jihad kind, close to the kind responsible for 9/11.
Despite what you seem to think, this is not the case.

As you well know, a decisive majority of andorians chose to cut their ties to the federation, will choose to join the typhon pact.

This is what makes this comparison of Therin a straw-man, BTW.

Indeed, as said, all his comparisons are straw-men - much like your overplayed 'racism' card is (in addition to being an insult).