Old Lke Flint

[LMFAOschwarz]

As to wealth accumulation he could have gained and lost fortunes many times over before accumulating it again.

Surely this is the case. Otherwise, I'm imagining an earlier Flint, once again moving on before his nature is suspected, traveling in a freight train, loaded to capacity with his accumulated wealth in tow. No way he wouldn't draw attention to himself sooner or later...an obscenely wealthy drifter?

He probably could have ruled the world at some point if he chose. Interesting, how he elected "life" after "life" to exist in almost complete anonymity. His Brahms and Davinci periods were probably among his most hated and feared, in a way. The greater the fame, the greater the watchful gaze of the curious, the meddlers, the fools. I seem to remember someone mentioning those things...

I like the 'smaller size' of know space and space exploration implied by Flint having purchased the planet "only" 30 years earlier. You'd think he would have done it sooner if he could. So, while Kirk wasn't quite old enough yet to dip little girls' curls in inkwells, Flint was only then able to make his big move to another world.

 

[2takesfrakes]

da Vinci and Brahams are the two Flint's private collection most focused on, so I guess that's why I'm so hung up on the da Vinci angle. But I like the arguments presented about the real da Vinci's fluctuating wealth, so far. It sounds good. As for making sense of the episode itself, Metryq's suggestion really puts it in a new perspective that actually makes this bizarre epsiode surprisingly large in its scope and content. Not too bad at all, for a Season Three! A lot of Food for Thought, there.

 

[JT Perfecthair]

I would watch Spock's Brain 3 times in a row before this. I'd even watch Miri before this.

Indeed, the "new" waltz by Brahms that Spock plays on the piano is the moment that elevates this just above Hail, Hail, Fire and Snow territory.

 

[Timewalker]

I realize you're joking, but HIGHLANDER came long after "Requiem," and mythology and sci-fi has had "immortals" since the dawn of time. But as to HIGHLANDER specifically...

What would have happened if Kirk and Flint had fought on holy ground?

In the first HIGHLANDER movie, Ramirez said that the prohibition against fighting on holy ground was "tradition." Nothing more. My own interpretation is that the Gathering was an allusion to Armageddon. No one ever said the "evil" immortals could not fight on holy ground. Perhaps Kruger could have killed MacLeod in the church, but wanted to best him a fight. Or perhaps Satan has his own reasons for following the same rule—pride, home field advantage, or something like that.

While I enjoyed the TV series, it made no sense at all—with the latent immortals, like Richie, the Gathering was pointless, along with the whole "there can be only one" schtick.

I saw the TV series before the movies (never saw the last two), so that's how I think of the way the Game works.

Of course I was joking, but it does provide fanfic writers with the perfect precedent to indulge in crossovers. There's a series of stories in which Richie Ryan joins Starfleet, even though Richie dies permanently in the TV series.

As to wealth accumulation he could have gained and lost fortunes many times over before accumulating it again.

Surely this is the case. Otherwise, I'm imagining an earlier Flint, once again moving on before his nature is suspected, traveling in a freight train, loaded to capacity with his accumulated wealth in tow. No way he wouldn't draw attention to himself sooner or later...an obscenely wealthy drifter?

He probably could have ruled the world at some point if he chose. Interesting, how he elected "life" after "life" to exist in almost complete anonymity. His Brahms and Davinci periods were probably among his most hated and feared, in a way. The greater the fame, the greater the watchful gaze of the curious, the meddlers, the fools. I seem to remember someone mentioning those things...

I like the 'smaller size' of know space and space exploration implied by Flint having purchased the planet "only" 30 years earlier. You'd think he would have done it sooner if he could. So, while Kirk wasn't quite old enough yet to dip little girls' curls in inkwells, Flint was only then able to make his big move to another world.

In the TV series, it was shown that Duncan periodically "died," but whenever possible he'd will his money and other assets to a "grandson" or other relative who by some coincidence was named after himself. Then all he had to do was establish his new identity, get his "inheritance," and carry on.

BTW, it's not that hard to move wealth if it's exceptionally portable, such as gemstones or other jewelry, or letters of credit or some sort of inheritance scheme as outlined above. But yeah, if someone lives a few centuries or millennia, one learns how to make money.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I realize you're joking, but HIGHLANDER came long after "Requiem," and mythology and sci-fi has had "immortals" since the dawn of time.

At least one example pretty similar in concept to Flint, with the past famous lives and all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Savage#Fictional_character_biography

 

[Marsden]

First, your thread title made me think of Our Man Flint.


I think it's safe to say the writer pick a bunch of obvious names out of history without any further criteria. At least he didn't claim to be Jack the Ripper, we met him in the second season.

FLINT: I am Brahms.
SPOCK: And da Vinci?
FLINT: Yes.
SPOCK: How many other names shall we call you?
FLINT: Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson. A hundred other names you do not know.

So is that King Solomon? Or the guy with the gold mines?
Which Lazarus? Somebody already claimed to be that Lazarus, or is he one of the guys fighting from Alternative Factor? What's the plural for Lazarus, Lazari?
Merlin?!? Really!

SPOCK: You were born?
FLINT: In that region of earth later called Mesopotamia, in the year 3834 BC, as the millennia are reckoned. I was Akharin, a soldier, a bully and a fool. I fell in battle, pierced to the heart and did not die.
MCCOY: Instant tissue regeneration coupled with some perfect form of biological renewal. You learned that you were immortal and
FLINT: And to conceal it. To live some portion of a life, to pretend to age and then move on before my nature was suspected.
SPOCK: Your wealth and your intellect are the product of centuries of acquisition. You knew the greatest minds in history.
FLINT: Galileo, Socrates, Moses. I have married a hundred times, Captain. Selected, loved, cherished. Caressed a smoothness, inhaled a brief fragrance. Then age, death, the taste of dust. Do you understand?

He knew Moses? The Moses? Or Moses Harry Horwitz ?
I don't think he's old enough to know the first "Moses" that would have been a few hundred years before he was born. I get the feeling if this was made today, he would have known Al Gore, Stephen Hawking, and the Kardashians. He's just a name dropper, and may be a liar. If a person had a few hundred years or so, they could learn to copy someone's hand or style, and then sell them as "lost originals" That would be a way to create some wealth.

I actually like the story, but it doesn't hold up to a lot of scrutiny, maybe it's not supposed to. It's about a man trying to create the perfect woman and just missing. Everything else is just details, this could have just as easily been a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits story. (I like both of those, btw, so that is not an insult, a compliment really.)


With his skill at making androids, maybe he changes his name to Soong later on.

 

[Timewalker]

FLINT: I am Brahms.
SPOCK: And da Vinci?
FLINT: Yes.
SPOCK: How many other names shall we call you?
FLINT: Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson. A hundred other names you do not know.

So is that King Solomon? Or the guy with the gold mines?
Which Lazarus? Somebody already claimed to be that Lazarus, or is he one of the guys fighting from Alternative Factor? What's the plural for Lazarus, Lazari?

SPOCK: You were born?
FLINT: In that region of earth later called Mesopotamia, in the year 3834 BC, as the millennia are reckoned. I was Akharin, a soldier, a bully and a fool. I fell in battle, pierced to the heart and did not die.
MCCOY: Instant tissue regeneration coupled with some perfect form of biological renewal. You learned that you were immortal and
FLINT: And to conceal it. To live some portion of a life, to pretend to age and then move on before my nature was suspected.
SPOCK: Your wealth and your intellect are the product of centuries of acquisition. You knew the greatest minds in history.
FLINT: Galileo, Socrates, Moses. I have married a hundred times, Captain. Selected, loved, cherished. Caressed a smoothness, inhaled a brief fragrance. Then age, death, the taste of dust. Do you understand?

He knew Moses? The Moses? Or Moses Harry Horwitz ?
I don't think he's old enough to know the first "Moses" that would have been a few hundred years before he was born. I get the feeling if this was made today, he would have known Al Gore, Stephen Hawking, and the Kardashians. He's just a name dropper, and may be a liar. If a person had a few hundred years or so, they could learn to copy someone's hand or style, and then sell them as "lost originals" That would be a way to create some wealth.

...


With his skill at making androids, maybe he changes his name to Soong later on.

About Lazarus: It's a name used elsewhere in fiction as well: the Lazarus Long portion of Robert Heinlein's Future History series (esp. Methuselah's Children, Time Enough For Love, and To Sail Beyond the Sunset).

Re: Moses. Archeological evidence has not been able to pin down a definitive time period in which the events of the Book of Exodus could have taken place. Wikipedia offers these possibilities, most of which have been discounted for various reasons:

Pharaohs in the book of Exodus

The book of Exodus tells how the Israelites are enslaved in Egypt and eventually escape under the leadership of Moses. At least two pharaohs are involved, the "pharaoh of the oppression" who enslaves the Israelites, and the "pharaoh of the exodus", during whose rule the Israelites escape. The biblical story does not name either, nor does it give enough information to identify the period in which the events are set, with the result that there have been many suggestions as to which of Egypt's many rulers was involved. Candidates put forward for the role include:

Dudimose (died c.1690 BC): David Rohl's 1995 A Test of Time revised Egyptian history by shortening the Third Intermediate Period of Egypt by almost 300 years. As a by-result the synchronisms with the biblical narrative have changed, making the 13th Dynasty pharaoh Djedneferre Dudimose (Dedumesu, Tutimaos, Tutimaios) the pharaoh of the Exodus.[4] Rohl's theory has failed to find support among scholars in his field.[5]
Ahmose I (1550-1525 BC): Simcha Jacobovici's April 16, 2006 History Channel documentary film Exodus Decoded and attributed to be the first pharaoh of the New Kingdom of Egypt.
Thutmose III (1479-1425 BC)[6]
Amenhotep II (1425-1400 BC). Shea suggested that there were 2 Amenhotep II's. The first one died in the Sea of reeds, after which his brother took the same title.[7]
Amenhotep II. K. A. Kitchen thought that Amenhotep II was the pharaoh of the exodus in 1400.
Thutmose IV: Steven Collins (Executive Dean of Trinity Southwest University) has stated that he thinks Thutmose IV to be the most likely candidate for pharaoh of the exodus.
Amenhotep III (1391-1353 BC) was the supposed pharaoh of the exodus by Ron Wyatt.[8]
Ramesses II (c.1279-1213 BC) Also known as Ramesses the Great, he is the most commonly imagined figure in popular culture, but there is no documentary or archaeological evidence that he had to deal with the Plagues of Egypt or anything similar or that he chased Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt. Ramesses II's late 13th century BC stela in Beth Shan mentions two conquered peoples who came to "make obeisance to him" in his city of Raameses or Pi-Ramesses but mentions neither the building of the city nor, as some have written, the Israelites or Hapiru.[9] Additionally, the historical Pithom was built in the 7th century BC, during the Saite period.[10][11]
Merneptah (c.1213-1203 BC): Isaac Asimov in his "Guide to the Bible" makes a case for him to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus.[12]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh_of_the_Exodus#Pharaohs_in_the_book_of_Exodus

All of these dates fall within the time period mentioned by Flint, so he could have met Moses, if Moses had ever really existed.

 

[Melakon]

He knew Moses? The Moses? Or Moses Harry Horwitz ?

Oh, a wise guy, eh?

Everything else is just details, this could have just as easily been a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits story.

The episode does resemble TZ's "Long Live Walter Jameson" in some ways, first aired in 1960.

 

[scotpens]

. . . It's really putting too much importance on his claim to have been DaVinci.

. . . His Brahms and Davinci periods were probably among his most hated and feared, in a way.

da Vinci and Brahams are the two Flint's private collection most focused on, so I guess that's why I'm so hung up on the da Vinci angle. But I like the arguments presented about the real da Vinci's fluctuating wealth, so far.

His name wasn't "Da Vinci"! He didn't have a surname.

(Sorry, it's just a bug up my ass.)

FLINT: I am Brahms.
SPOCK: And da Vinci?
FLINT: Yes.
SPOCK: How many other names shall we call you?
FLINT: Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson. A hundred other names you do not know.

So is that King Solomon? Or the guy with the gold mines?

They're one and the same, actually.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

First, your thread title made me think of Our Man Flint.

Close! I actually had in mind In Like Flint when I wrote it. I try to write titles that are more interesting that just "A question about Miri" or "A question about phaser settings". Doesn't always work, but it's a fun challenge!

If a person had a few hundred years or so, they could learn to copy someone's hand or style, and then sell them as "lost originals" That would be a way to create some wealth.

That's a really good point.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

He's just a name dropper, and may be a liar. If a person had a few hundred years or so, they could learn to copy someone's hand or style, and then sell them as "lost originals" That would be a way to create some wealth.

The problem with your name dropper / liar hunch is that he's dealing with late 23rd century people from an organization that seems to know much about earth history. Not only would centuries of research about significant historical figures be at their fingertips, but Spock is a student of many aspects of earth history. Combined, famous forgeries, impersonators, etc., would be in the historical record, just as we can look up the same kind of history today.

Rolling out a stream of lies to people from his own world would not be the most advantageous move. Moreover, the 1701 crew could not prove any of his identity claims to be false.

It's about a man trying to create the perfect woman and just missing.

That's the point--the episode is a romantic mystery--the Sherlock-ing into his identity is only there to serve the question of his desire to create the perfect, eternal woman, not the main plot.

 

[Melakon]

. . .DaVinci.

. . . Davinci. . .

His name wasn't "Da Vinci"! He didn't have a surname.

(Sorry, it's just a bug up my ass.)

Hey, we're just talking about Frank da Vinci, Nimoy's stand-in and a stuntman/extra on the show. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Frank_da_Vinci



(Hope he bought that)

 

[Metryq]

That's the point--the episode is a romantic mystery

If Flint had died and Rayna survived (oh, the irony), it would be like Lester del Rey's "Helen O'Loy."

 

[The Old Mixer]

the Sherlock-ing into his identity

Oh yeah, he was Sherlock Holmes, too...and Fred Flintstone.

 

[plynch]

Trek itself is implausible. Space navy with artificial gravity, deck by deck? So implausibilities in a premise or story don't seem to phase (or phaser) me. Execution matters a lot. This episode imho is very nicely done. The words, acting, music, vibe, etc. I love Spock's "forget" at the end, though I know it raises ethical problems w/ some. One of my faves.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I love Spock's "forget" at the end, though I know it raises ethical problems w/ some.

I guess I'm one of the "some"...

And if he had been consulted in advance, I'm not sure James "I Need My Pain!" Kirk would have approved, either.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I love Spock's "forget" at the end, though I know it raises ethical problems w/ some.

I guess I'm one of the "some"...

And if he had been consulted in advance, I'm not sure James "I Need My Pain!" Kirk would have approved, either.

Think of the timing: by the time the events of this episode rolled around, Kirk lost a best friend, a brother and sister-in-law, Edith and Miramanee. Perhaps Spock considered all of the lost lives--in other words, Kirk had enough tragedy that coaxing his mind to forget Rayna would help more than hurt (his right to remember his own life's events).

The "I need my pain" Kirk can be said to be the man settling on the idea that he cannot bury or run away from it, but no one said he adopted that mindset during TOS' period.

 

[Metryq]

Or maybe the "I need my pain" Kirk found out what that Vulcan meddler had done and was hurt even more by the revelation—thus leading to his making the statement in ST5.

 

[Marsden]

The "I need my pain" Kirk can be said to be the man settling on the idea that he cannot bury or run away from it, but no one said he adopted that mindset during TOS' period.

It could also be that the "I need my pain" was just that Kirk didn't want to drink Sybok's Kool Aid, simple as that. After all, this is the man (character) that overcame the Spores from his own sense of duty without outside interference and later rejected "paradise" because it was too safe.




Or maybe we're all just jumping to conclusions and Spock's "Forget" is about the time he stole the Enterprise and kidnapped Capt. Pike.

 

[Melakon]

Maybe we're all just jumping to conclusions and Spock's "Forget" is about the time he stole the Enterprise and kidnapped Capt. Pike.

He was telling Kirk to forget how to play three dimensional chess, so that Spock could finally win a game for once.