• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Odd Choices in TOS-R cgi fx

What's everybodies take on what Greg Jein did for DS9: "Trials And Tribble-ations"?

I know such a mass scale FX reshoot was probably outside the range of TOS-R (CGI is cheaper), but I really thought the model photography on that episode was terrific.

I'm doing a DS9 rewatch in the next week or so, most likely extremely partial, but "T&T" is a must-see, so I'll get back on that when it's fresh. ;)

The problem is, I've yet to rewatch TOS's "Tribbles" with the original VFX ever since seeing DS9's "Tribble-s," so I lack an original FX point of reference that's also fresh in my mind. :wtf: I hope I don't have to hand in my geek card for that! (Truth be told, my DVD of it is still in its shrink wrap! I should probably deal with this issue somehow.)
 
What's everybodies take on what Greg Jein did for DS9: "Trials And Tribble-ations"?

I know such a mass scale FX reshoot was probably outside the range of TOS-R (CGI is cheaper), but I really thought the model photography on that episode was terrific.
But that didn't recreate the TOS aesthetic. Again we had a Klingon ship a boring gray and with panel lines on top of it all. And if I'm not mistaken Jein's model, nice as it is, isn't an exact replica.
 
Last edited:
It was awfully darn close, though. About the only things that were off were the shape of the translucent domes atop and at the bottom of the saucer section, the extra bronze band at the bow of the secondary hull, and those ever-so-pesky to replicate spinning domes on the fronts of the warp nacelles.
 
Any idea why in "The Apple," they changed the planet from red to brown/green/blue? I'm guessing they felt the more earthlike color scheme was a more realistic match for the way the planet appeared on the surface, but it's definitely a sharp departure from the original.
 
Great read, this thread.
Bottom line from what I'm seeing is that the group are not okuda fans.
Is that a fair assessment ?

(and, dear lord, before anyone asks me or attacks me, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just reading and learning about TOS from you über fans )
 
Actually my impression is that Okuda wanted to scale things back so If so I really can't have much issue with the guy.
 
Great read, this thread.
Bottom line from what I'm seeing is that the group are not okuda fans.
Is that a fair assessment ?

Okuda is a graphic designer, plain and simple. The guy did great work to that effect. We can also thank him and his wife for the enormous amount of research that went into the Trek reference books he authored. That first edition chronology is amazing.

What he is not is a visual effects director. As far as I know he's had no prior experience in it. That, to me, made him obviously wrong for the job.
 
Wasn't Okuda employed only as a 'consultant'?

In any case, I'm not sure if his influence is the make-or-break. :)

(I find the chonrology and encyclopedia fascinating, but I've long since conditioned myself against accepting them as anything other than 'fanon', because any entry prefixed with "conjecture" is effectively the Okuda's creating a fictional context that doesn't hold the weight of actual on-screen evidence. OTOH, there's stuff in the Okuda/Sternbach technical manual that I *do* accept as canon. So I'm a hypocrite, basically. :D)
 
Wasn't Okuda employed only as a 'consultant'?

In any case, I'm not sure if his influence is the make-or-break.

He was a coproducer, and, from what I read, he had his hands in most everything, even the design of planets as seen from space. He certainly makes it seem, in interviews, like he and David Rossi (who also had no effects experience) was running the show. If they want to take the blame I'm happy to give it to them.
 
I love the old saying " A camel, is a horse designed by committee"
This is my chief concern about the group currently deciding on how to approach restoring our beloved Enterprise, but that's another thread ;)

I'd forgotten that the Okudas were involved in TOS-R which explains a lot. Other than not having a great deal of talent, CBS D's main problem was inconsistency.

To begin with, they gave us a laughably cartoony Enterprise, which would have remained so, if it weren't for the fans vehemently (and rightly) complaining about how awful it looked!
The fact that CBS D thought it was good enough in the first place was a huge red flag for me :)

So they scramble for a less cartoony model.

Do they go back and replace the initial laughably cartoony model used in wonderful classics like The Naked Time, Balance of Terror and City on the Edge of Forever?

Nope.

So now those fantastic episodes will remain forever with a laughably cartoony starship Enterprise.

Nice.

It's funny now, but I remember Dave Rossi (head of CBS-D) saying before the release of TOS-R: oh it'll be great now that the Enterprise will finally be consistent (referring to the pilot and production versions being used in the same episode)
LOL Dave. LOL.

ahip.jpg


So CBS D decided, at times, to slavishly follow the original effects matching them shot for shot. Fair enough, but then turn around and add entirely NEW sequences like the satellites being deployed in Operation Annihilate!

Pick an approach guys! I'm good with either one but commit to it.

operationannihilatehd744.jpg


Star Trek is EXTREMELY analog, NOT digital.
Look at these two shots which come one after the other in The Immunity Syndrome.
Look at the color of the shuttlecraft, the color of the floor, the bulkheads, the lighting.
They even changed the circle around the shuttlecraft from grey to bright yellow and added a bright red square. Do you see a bright red square under Spock's feet? :)

shuttle.jpg


Extremely jarring, not to mention completely unnecessary. The main hangar deck shot(s) didn't go through an optical printer which left the film pristine, and the ones that did (launching and landing) could have been easily cleaned up digitally.

One would assume from CBS Digital's many interviews that they very much honored the original material and only changed things because they HAD to. The default excuse being that the original effects looked terrible in HD.
Okay, so then why would you add a new sound effect to the Planet Killer in The Doomsday Machine, and sound effects the Klingon Ship in Ellan of Troyus?
Why would you completely re-record the main theme(s), put Shatner's voice WAY in the background with so much reverb that I can barely hear him and yet leave all of the other music intact? (thank God)

Why would you mess with that in the first place?
What was the point?

Again, inconsistent.

There were also situations like The Immunity Syndrome where an HD plate could have been easily captured from the original. The plate, which was far superior, would also have been more practical as well (again saving time and money) and far more preferable to throwing together a crappy digital version.
Case in point below. CBS D's much poorer version could not look less alive and organic while the original effects team won an award for this effect which still holds up today.

Clipboard-1.jpg


Lousy explosions, blinking Gorns, good planets then horrible cartoony planets, I could go on and on.

It is almost as if CBS D went out of their way to do the opposite of what was required.
Do they even know who Jerry Finnerman was? Finnerman's beautiful, colorful, soft, shadowy, inventive, dramatic camera work and CBS D's flat, grey, boring, cinematic-ally infantile, uninspired style.

Good match.

I was so excited when the project was first announced. I though YES! FINALLY we have the technology to match Finnerman's style with the special effects shots! You could easily edit Finnerman's work with shots from 2001 (in 4 by 3 of course) and it would flow nicely.

The last image I'll leave you with is one of the many shots of one the weeble people, seen aimlessly gazing from one the windows of our beloved (cartoon) big E.
ENT.png

283-plasticfamily.jpg


:lol:Spockboy
 
Last edited:
Great read, this thread.
Bottom line from what I'm seeing is that the group are not okuda fans.
Is that a fair assessment ?
No. One can be a fan of a band and not like a given album or song. One can like Mike Okuda and his many contribution to Star Trek and still think that he was out of his element on the remastered FX project. It's about a given piece of work, not about the person.
 
@ Spockboy: some of those screencaps made me :lol:, which I am sure was not CBS-D's intention. ;)

Particularly evil is that shuttlebay shot. Was there any quality control in play here? That's... particularly jarring.
 
I'm a big fan of the TOS shuttlecraft and the hangar deck and I was appalled seeing what CBS did to them. It was a complete and very sick joke.

I'm a goddamned amateur when it comes to computer modelling and cgi and I probably could have done better.
 
Last edited:
Great read, this thread.
Bottom line from what I'm seeing is that the group are not okuda fans.
Is that a fair assessment ?
No. One can be a fan of a band and not like a given album or song. One can like Mike Okuda and his many contribution to Star Trek and still think that he was out of his element on the remastered FX project. It's about a given piece of work, not about the person.

+1
 
Those aren't Weebles, they're Lego people. Weebles have a funnier-sounding name, and your photo still elicited a chuckle. So we won't throw you in the brig this time. ;)

Please, they're Fisher Price Little People!
 
I think people are confusing Dave Rossi, with Neil Wray. I believe Neil was the supervising producer for TOS-R, not Dave, and managing all involved including Mike and Dave and the whole team to develop and deliver the shots on time for syndication.
 
Generally I like the TOS-R versions- some shots really stand out as better to like seeing the Enterprise in the region of non-space in 'The Immunity Syndrome' with almost no fill light- just the windows and engine glow.
IIRC they were constantly messing with the CGI model from episode to episode- adding this and reducing the file size and those shows were not done in broadcast order so the Enterprise loos uneven from show to show. I do like seeing vessels which were only mentioned or shown as a light blob before.

My biggest disappointment was what they did with 'The Ultimate Computer'. When I saw the station shot in the beginning (which did not look great but nice to see another design), I had hopes. I always wanted to see the war games battle in full glory and I felt short changed. I was not expecting Star Wars, but that much destruction going on and we still did not see much at all.
 
Generally I like the TOS-R versions- some shots really stand out as better to like seeing the Enterprise in the region of non-space in 'The Immunity Syndrome' with almost no fill light- just the windows and engine glow.
IIRC they were constantly messing with the CGI model from episode to episode- adding this and reducing the file size and those shows were not done in broadcast order so the Enterprise loos uneven from show to show. I do like seeing vessels which were only mentioned or shown as a light blob before.

My biggest disappointment was what they did with 'The Ultimate Computer'. When I saw the station shot in the beginning (which did not look great but nice to see another design), I had hopes. I always wanted to see the war games battle in full glory and I felt short changed. I was not expecting Star Wars, but that much destruction going on and we still did not see much at all.

I agree Ultimate Computer was a bust for me as well. Even in the POV and composition of the shots, it showed little creativity. The action and damage is happening on the Lexington or other ships, and the camera is almost always boringly parked behind the Enterprise.

It would be like in TWOK when the E fires on the Reliant, and we only saw it from a mile away from behind the Enterprise!?
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top