He's already in charge of people's lives in DS9, though. A commission wouldn't change that. Especially not one from after the war when he's already slated for the academy, anyway.
O'Brien's career
- Thread starter Grendelsbayne
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Is he? I mean I'm not an expert enough on the show to know, but while I'm sure he's in charge of people where work is concerned, is he ordering people into life & death circumstances, or are his actions in the line of duty, directly responsible for deciding if people live or die?
He may not be typically selected as a mission leader, but he's still a dept. head. Anything goes wrong (like, say, an attack, boarders, etc, which was not exactly uncommon) he's still responsible for his people's lives. Not to mention that as head of engineering, his battle decisions about what to do and in what order mean that the lives of everyone on board are automatically in his hands in any engineering emergency (which were also not uncommon).
Ok, but even as a transporter chief, who just mans a console, he's responsible for the safety of people, getting them back on a millisecond's notice etc... Hell, even I am responsible for the safety of people, & all I do is count scalpels & hemostats all day. (kind of an understatement lol)
But ultimately I'm talking more about the ordering of people to die, the choice to fire or not, being in the position of choosing when to end lives, or worse yet, when not to save them, the stuff he would've been doing as a tactical officer on the Rutledge, during the Cardassian War.
CHIEF O'Brien don't gotta do none of that no more, & something in me identifies with that motive. I'm like that. I would never want to be a tactical officer on a starship, or a command one, a bridge officer etc... I would never want to be in the position that Troi finds herself in, during her command exam, ordering a friend to die, or deciding when it's ok to lay waste to people, as a profession.
So maybe I'm projecting some of my own ideology on Miles, but because of my take on it, it's pretty hard for me to see a guy who use to do those things, but doesn't anymore, as inadvertently ending up that way, or doing so for some insignificant reason, like not wanting to wear a dress uniform. I like to think that war had a profound effect on him, that made him rethink his role in life
Am I completely off there?
Edit: I mean sometimes life gives you no choice but to make those decisions, but you don't have to voluntarily sign up for it as your profession. You can choose to make your trade a bit more passive
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I'm pretty sure he still wound up giving orders on a hairy away mission or two, anyway, though. I don't recall specific episodes off the top of my head, so maybe I'm wrong, but even if so, the undeniable fact is that he easily could wind up in such situations at any point during DS9. And he very obviously would not wind up in such situations as a planetside instructor.
So if this was really something he felt so strongly about and was a primary motivation for him, then it makes little sense for him to accept the DS9 position and even less sense to speculate that he definitely wouldn't accept any commission that might be offered at series' end.
So if this was really something he felt so strongly about and was a primary motivation for him, then it makes little sense for him to accept the DS9 position and even less sense to speculate that he definitely wouldn't accept any commission that might be offered at series' end.
That's the problem. Neither do I lol
An instructor in what really? I mean sure he's knowledgeable, & could probably teach, but does that seem to fit his aptitudes? Life is about knowing where you fit, & frankly, any of us could find ourselves in a life or death decision. The object is to weigh where you best fit against your comfort levels & aspirations
I don't have to speculate that he wouldn't want a commission. He outright tells people such. My speculation is about why, which he's also mentioned on occasion, albeit in a less than meaningful way. I'm just trying to find some deeper meaning in there... if possible
Actually, I'd think DS9 would be a far better fit for him, with his new family, than serving on the Enterprise, even if it's not some humdrum Earthbound job. It's still settled in somewhere, & until the war, a pretty homey place to be. Again, it's about weighing where you'd be of the most value, against your comfort level. He's in Starfleet, which makes him a serviceman, & if he valued that, he'd maybe think "Where would my service be best put to use?" & then weigh it against how compromised as a person he might feel
Look, I know I'm really off in the bramble on this one lol, but O'Brien is easily the most relatable character in all of Star Trek... to me. So I wax philosophic a bit more I guess
That's the problem. Neither do I lol
An instructor in what really? I mean sure he's knowledgeable, & could probably teach, but does that seem to fit his aptitudes? Life is about knowing where you fit, & frankly, any of us could find ourselves in a life or death decision. The object is to weigh where you best fit against your comfort levels & aspirations
I don't have to speculate that he wouldn't want a commission. He outright tells people such. My speculation is about why, which he's also mentioned on occasion, albeit in a less than meaningful way. I'm just trying to find some deeper meaning in there... if possible
Actually, I'd think DS9 would be a far better fit for him, with his new family, than serving on the Enterprise, even if it's not some humdrum Earthbound job. It's still settled in somewhere, & until the war, a pretty homey place to be. Again, it's about weighing where you'd be of the most value, against your comfort level. He's in Starfleet, which makes him a serviceman, & if he valued that, he'd maybe think "Where would my service be best put to use?" & then weigh it against how compromised as a person he might feel
Look, I know I'm really off in the bramble on this one lol, but O'Brien is easily the most relatable character in all of Star Trek... to me. So I wax philosophic a bit more I guess
Well, he told people he turned one down in the past and wasn't interested in one during the war. That doesn't mean he'd automatically turn one down in the future, if the circumstances were different.
And the instructor part wasn't speculation, that was the ending of O'Brien's storyline as written on the show. He went to be an engineering instructor at Utopia Planitia, IIRC (presumably part of a SF academy program). And I mention that because he seemed to expect it to be a long-term assignment (he talked about his kids growing up near Earth, IIRC - it could reasonably be imagined to be his final assignment, unless he chooses to go back out there) and it's about as safe an assignment as you can get. Therefore, if being in charge in dangerous situations is his main issue with a commission, then there'd be no reason he need necessarily refuse one at that point. IOW, if he did refuse one at that point it would seem to indicate that his main issue is something else - like, for instance, his already stated desire to avoid officer formalities.
Dang, just think how much more O'brien would be suffering if he were an officer!
Can you imagine how Q might've ended up if he'd pissed off Kira? He'd be a bloody smear along the Promenade.I’ve always detested Q’s line to O’B...”weren’t you one of the little people?”.
Asshole.
Q was lucky to be punched only once.
Um, Empok Nor?
See, that's my point. Even in that very dire circumstance, he is not a person who's job it is to command people into death or order them to kill. Death & killing happens, because while they were on a salvage mission things went bad. Shit happens. I could be in a kill or be killed situation tomorrow. I don't know, but it isn't something I deliberately task myself with as a vocation. It's still not the same as Troi's bridge officer exam, that has her order someone to die, or Picard ordering Worf to fire on someone, to kill them.
I'm not as up on DS9, but I'm racking my brain to find a time where O'Brien is ever required to do so. It's not what's required of the chief, but it is required of a tac officer, a commander, or even maybe a tech officer like Laforge, if the situation required him to order someone to man their post, to certain demise. He's not doing that in Empok Nor. He's sending people out to work on problems, & yes, those problems exist in life threatening situations, but it's still not the same as ordering a man to die or kill. He never does that in that episode
We all know he is a man who can be as deadly as any. That whole episode plays it out right to the last line, where he admits the intent was to kill Garak. The point is, it's not his job to kill or die anymore, or make people do it, & I think that must've been deliberate, even if he isn't doing as safe a job as being a teacher in a classroom, like @grendelsbayne pointed out (& I'd forgotten lol)
Such a great episode btw
I think that this conversation has reached something of an impasse because Star Trek tends to fetishize one concept, "command," over another that matters much more, "leadership." In lots of episodes of TOS and TNG, being in command or asserting one's command seems to be a major decision for the CO that helps the episode move towards its resolution.However, command is more of a legal term that describes the rights and responsibilities of a person within the military who has taken a particular posting.
Leadership is not something that is hard built into the rank, but it is assumed to be a quality of someone who has been awarded command. According to the US Army, "leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose, direction, and motivation to accomplish the mission and improve the organization." It is a skill developed by all levels through both experience and education. Can you motivate a group to perform in situations that might seem impossible to individuals? In most circumstances, leadership matters far more than command.
Are there time when O'Brien shows leadership skills? The opportunities are few and far between. The backstory of the Cardassian Border Wars would be one example. Perhaps a better example is Starship Down: although O'Brien is not himself relaying order, he advises Worf on how to motivate enlisted me in order to accomplish a task that the person in command has set out to perform. In other areas, we do see O'Brien advising Sisko in tactical matters.
If we were to backdate things, O'Brien would probably be considered the command master chief petty officer, a designation that does not necessarily reflect rank as much as the ability to manage the enlisted men in their entirety.It is a position that works quite intimately with the CO.
Leadership is not something that is hard built into the rank, but it is assumed to be a quality of someone who has been awarded command. According to the US Army, "leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose, direction, and motivation to accomplish the mission and improve the organization." It is a skill developed by all levels through both experience and education. Can you motivate a group to perform in situations that might seem impossible to individuals? In most circumstances, leadership matters far more than command.
Are there time when O'Brien shows leadership skills? The opportunities are few and far between. The backstory of the Cardassian Border Wars would be one example. Perhaps a better example is Starship Down: although O'Brien is not himself relaying order, he advises Worf on how to motivate enlisted me in order to accomplish a task that the person in command has set out to perform. In other areas, we do see O'Brien advising Sisko in tactical matters.
If we were to backdate things, O'Brien would probably be considered the command master chief petty officer, a designation that does not necessarily reflect rank as much as the ability to manage the enlisted men in their entirety.It is a position that works quite intimately with the CO.
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