Oberth & Daedalus Class - Deflector Dish

[JoeRalat]

Now sure if this has been talked about but, I wanted to know has there been any explanation on where the Deflector dish is on the Oberth Class. I was also looking at the Daedalus and the model build had 3 area where the dish is normally on a star ship, so I am guessing that a new type of dish.

Could a defector dish be hidden behind/inside the hull?

 

[Dukhat]

Here's an official Oberth class MSD, if it's any help:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141122175141/startrek/images/7/79/Oberth-class_MSD.jpg

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The Oberth-Class is essentially a sensor array with warp engine slapped on it.

 

[T'Girl]

Maybe "hidden" is the wrong term. My take is that the rectangular shape on the bow of the saucer is the deflector, there's a similar deflector on the USS Stargazer.

 

[Timo]

Or then both of those features are shuttlebays or cargo holds or airlocks or sensor berths. Hard to tell for sure.

The lower bow of the Oberth pod looks like an obvious "radome", a sensor-transparent protective fairing similar to the nose cones of today's aircraft. That's where the official, onscreen cutout display puts a big dish, too, although it's not trivially easy to see in TNG "Hero Worship".

However, so many other ship designs, Starfleet and other, lack a potential deflector dish altogether that one doubts the dish (whether exposed or hidden) actually is required equipment for starships at all. Or if dishes are vital, then many ships probably rely on a number of very small dishes distributed and hidden in various spots.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Exactly; even the name "main deflector dish" implies that there are other, smaller sized deflector systems dotted around the hull. For my money, these are what the 3 boxey things are on the forward engineering hull of the TOS-E (with the dish maybe just a large sensor). The refit-E has rounded off doodads in the same location, and these doodads are also found on the upper hull (I think) of the Reliant.

The presence of a dish may be desirable in top-of-the-line explorer ships (certainly it seems a useful and versatile piece of hardware) but it's presence is clearly not essential for all vessels.

 

[JoeRalat]

Thank you for the information every. After looking over the model, I can't see much of anything that can be used as the deflector. The cutaway looks like there is a deflector where it should be in the secondary hull but, it's gets me back to my question can a defector work behind a ships hull? Could the hull be a deflector?

Thanks again

 

[137th Gebirg]

Exactly; even the name "main deflector dish" implies that there are other, smaller sized deflector systems dotted around the hull. For my money, these are what the 3 boxey things are on the forward engineering hull of the TOS-E (with the dish maybe just a large sensor). The refit-E has rounded off doodads in the same location...

The official ST:TMP blueprints by David Kimble list those devices as "Space-Energy Field Attraction Sensors". I was always under the impression that the main deflector was used in concert with navigational shielding to do just that - deflect debris and other matter away from the ship while at high warp, lest the smallest speck of comet dust tear a hole through the ship at relativistic speeds, killing all hands just minutes after leaving drydock. The three sensors surrounding it, designed to "attract" something towards the ship seems at odds with the deflector's supposed purpose.

and these doodads are also found on the upper hull (I think) of the Reliant.

Correct. Two in the middle of, and on either side of the main angled-superstructure on the top of the primary hull and one on the top of the weapons pod. All three facing forward.

 

[Forbin]

I've assumed the "attractors" are to help gather and direct interstellar hydrogen into the bussard collectors. But yeah, come to think of it, in that case it does seem odd to place them near the deflector.

 

[Mytran]

Not really, assuming that the main fuel tanks are in the secondary hull. Why bother with the meandering route through the nacelles when you can just refuel direct?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Because if you have 3 small objects that were designed to attract something next to a larger object that was designed to repel an arguably similar-looking-something, it may be enough to negate the effects of both, or at the very least diminish their collective effectiveness overall.

It would make more sense for the attractors to be closer to an intake, like the bussard collectors (or the space energy/matter acquisition sinks in pre-TNG old-fart-speak) on the front of the nacelles.

The only thing I can think of where it wouldn't matter if they were that close together on the secondary hull, is if the attractors only functioned while at sub-light speeds and the deflector only functioned at warp (meshing with the amber-to-blue color change as seen in TMP) where their operational existence would be mutually exclusive.

That gets way too deep in the non-canonical conjectural weeds, though, I think.

 

[Timo]

Because if you have 3 small objects that were designed to attract something next to a larger object that was designed to repel an arguably similar-looking-something, it may be enough to negate the effects of both, or at the very least diminish their collective effectiveness overall.

Or then both operations are made more efficient by "balancing them out", so that a little bit of + and a little bit of - leave the universe essentially unbothered and uninterested in resisting the operations.

How do you balance the thermal budget of an industrial plant? By pairing heat sources with heat sinks, and by favoring extreme temperature differences between the two over smaller and less efficient differences...

Of course, the name of the doodads (should we choose to accept it) may also apply to a technology that does not suck anything in, and in fact greatly benefits from being next to another doodad pushing stuff out at high FTL.

Then again, the main deflector dish is also called the main sensor dish in equally official blueprints. There may be no contradiction between out at high FTL and in at high FTL there, just like a giant OTH radar dish pouring out gigawatts at lightspeed is no obstacle to receiving mere watts at lightspeed.

All this is a bit academical, though, as we can see that these "attraction sensor" doodads are not closely associated with the big dish, as per the Reliant.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Avro Arrow]

Because if you have 3 small objects that were designed to attract something next to a larger object that was designed to repel an arguably similar-looking-something, it may be enough to negate the effects of both, or at the very least diminish their collective effectiveness overall.

It would make more sense for the attractors to be closer to an intake, like the bussard collectors (or the space energy/matter acquisition sinks in pre-TNG old-fart-speak) on the front of the nacelles.

The only thing I can think of where it wouldn't matter if they were that close together on the secondary hull, is if the attractors only functioned while at sub-light speeds and the deflector only functioned at warp (meshing with the amber-to-blue color change as seen in TMP) where their operational existence would be mutually exclusive.

That gets way too deep in the non-canonical conjectural weeds, though, I think.

Or perhaps the "space-energy field attraction sensors" are only sensors for sensing and measuring "space-energy field attraction", and don't do any actual attraction themselves.

You already mentioned that, according to the same blueprints, the "space-energy/matter sinks (acquisition)" are at the front of the nacelles, so why would we assume that a completely different-looking component is doing the same thing?

If one really wants to insist that these objects attract something, well, based on the name it would only attract energy, and the deflector presumably only deflects physical matter, so perhaps they can co-exist in the same location because they are both operating on different things, and so one has no effect on the other?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Well, as I said before, we're really getting deep in the non-canonical conjectural weeds with this, as I don't know of any official explanation (outside the main deflector) of any of these components outside what they're called. You're right, they may serve totally different purposes and have no effect on one another.

I always viewed the acquisition sinks on the nacelle tips as being passive collectors, taking in matter (and possibly energy) while flying along, much as a ramscoop on a vehicle's hood or aircraft engine takes in air. There is nothing there to attract the air, it just gets pushed in as a function of the vehicle's forward velocity. Conversely, the name of the "space-energy field attraction sensors" implies an active purpose, one that intentionally goes out and attracts things to the ship. There are clearly some exclusive purposes for these two constructs, or there wouldn't be a need for both of their presences on the ship's hull. It does make sense that these "attractors" should be closer to the sinks/bussards instead of next to something that "deflects". You may be 100% right, in that the deflectors deflect matter, space debris, etc., and the attractors attract only "space-energy", so that they don't operate at cross-purposes, and with the sinks far enough away from the deflector so as not to be incumbered by its primary purpose.

Again, we really don't know. There is simply not enough on-screen information to ascertain a functional purpose for these components with 100% certainty. Perhaps Mr. Probert or Mr. Sternbach may be able to elucidate on some of these more esoteric aspects of TMP-era starship design and are the closest people we have here that could operate as official authorities on the matter. I don't think Mr. Okuda has posted here in a very long time and may not be available for comment.

 

[Timo]

Let's not forget that the "sink" on the nacelle bows was paired with a "source" at the aft ends. This sort of goes against the idea of the sinks being Bussard scoops or hoovers of some other sort - they are just poles in a bipolar field-shaping device akin to a pole magnet. In parallel terminology, one end "acquires" space-energy, and the other "restores" the field.

Since the engines are pumping space-energy in and out, it stands to reason that sensors studying space-energy wouldn't need to do much to the item of study itself - the engines take care of that already.

That is, if we believe in the terminology as a whole, rather than in bits and pieces of it, or none of it. It certainly is a swamp.

Timo Saloniemi