Obama: Wall Street Bonuses "Shameful"

[Plecostomus]

They deserve that stuff if they have worked hard, dumped their own money into the business and have reaped the dividends. Tell me, how many years did you go to school for? How many student loans do you have?

Who are you to dictate who should be making what?

There is a pecking order in life, friend. The people who go to school, make money and then dump it back into their businessess are NOT going to shell it out for those that are supporting it. Sure, they should treat them well, but they shouldn't give it all away.

As a worker on hourly wage, I'm betting they go home at 5PM every day? The business owner is likely not doing that. He's likely working a hell of a lot more than you.

Anf FYI: I'm a lawyer. I billed almost 2300 hours last year. Worked more than that. I have 125K in student loans. If I work hard you're damn right I expect to make more than the guys below me. Why? Because I worked for it and I earn it.

Yeah well by the time you become CEO (which is NOT the same as an owner BTW) your student loans are long since paid for, and CEOs do nothing that requires them to work long hours. They keep the lights on in the office and stay in drinking and working on golf-putts.

I'm dictating who makes what because we have someone making more money in a year than most of us see in a lifetime send OUR jobs overseas then pocket a huge bonus for his "cost savings" effort.

The very foundation of this country is constructed from the efforts of people like myself, and the engineering dude in the "work record" thread and the person at Burger King. Without our efforts there would be no gold to hoard.

I repeat: What gives you the right to collect $20 million dollars over a ten year period when all you do is sit in your leather-and-mahogany appointed office crushing the very people whos efforts allowed you to get there? Hm?

Its not bloat on the production floor, its not bloat in benefits or health care for the workers, its the high-level bloat that makes us uncompetitive.

The example above ^ Mr. CEO is facing a tanking stock price and shrinking profits so rather than spend money that would go into his bonus... spend money on improving the workforce and the technology they work with... he cuts 12,000 jobs and pockets his bonus! Of course when you have $50 million dollars in savings, stocks and investments and a mansion and a private car and a stable full of sports cars you cannot POSSIBLY survive without your $850,000 bonus check.

This is the kind of excess I want regulated.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

They deserve that stuff if they have worked hard, dumped their own money into the business and have reaped the dividends. Tell me, how many years did you go to school for? How many student loans do you have?

Who are you to dictate who should be making what?

There is a pecking order in life, friend. The people who go to school, make money and then dump it back into their businessess are NOT going to shell it out for those that are supporting it. Sure, they should treat them well, but they shouldn't give it all away.

As a worker on hourly wage, I'm betting they go home at 5PM every day? The business owner is likely not doing that. He's likely working a hell of a lot more than you.

Anf FYI: I'm a lawyer. I billed almost 2300 hours last year. Worked more than that. I have 125K in student loans. If I work hard you're damn right I expect to make more than the guys below me. Why? Because I worked for it and I earn it.

Yeah well by the time you become CEO (which is NOT the same as an owner BTW) your student loans are long since paid for, and CEOs do nothing that requires them to work long hours. They keep the lights on in the office and stay in drinking and working on golf-putts.

I'm dictating who makes what because we have someone making more money in a year than most of us see in a lifetime send OUR jobs overseas then pocket a huge bonus for his "cost savings" effort.

The very foundation of this country is constructed from the efforts of people like myself, and the engineering dude in the "work record" thread and the person at Burger King. Without our efforts there would be no gold to hoard.

I repeat: What gives you the right to collect $20 million dollars over a ten year period when all you do is sit in your leather-and-mahogany appointed office crushing the very people whos efforts allowed you to get there? Hm?

Its not bloat on the production floor, its not bloat in benefits or health care for the workers, its the high-level bloat that makes us uncompetitive.

The example above ^ Mr. CEO is facing a tanking stock price and shrinking profits so rather than spend money that would go into his bonus... spend money on improving the workforce and the technology they work with... he cuts 12,000 jobs and pockets his bonus! Of course when you have $50 million dollars in savings, stocks and investments and a mansion and a private car and a stable full of sports cars you cannot POSSIBLY survive without your $850,000 bonus check.

This is the kind of excess I want regulated.

Ok...so regulate it when there is a bailout. Not otherwise. And if you really think that CEOs do nothing, you've been spending too much time inhaling machine parts cleaner.

 

[Dayton3]

People get paid more when they are responsible for more.

A CEO responsible for a corporation employing 10,000 people deserves to get paid a lot more than one of those people working who are only responsible for tightening some widget that comes down the assembly line.

And don't deny it.

It takes talent to manage a corporation. And sometimes corporations fail despite good management.

You take away the huge bonuses, and just try and find someone in the future who has ability who is willing to take responsibility for a corporation.

 

[Chimpy Chompy]

I don't think many people here would question that execs should earn a lot more than the plebs at the bottom of the pyramid.

But, well, aren't these guys already very well paid even without bonuses?

 

[Plecostomus]

Ok...so regulate it when there is a bailout. Not otherwise. And if you really think that CEOs do nothing, you've been spending too much time inhaling machine parts cleaner.

Can you explain then what exactly a CEO does in relation to the board, the stable full of VPs and Senior VPs, and the unit, district, division, and other various levels of "manager" can you differentiate exactly why this "king of kings" even exists when we have all this other "leadership?"

Oh an I inhale the parts cleaner because someone in an office somewhere decided rather than admit we ran out and stop production for two hours to restock from Fastenal we'd just pretend that they weren't required or necessary for the job and fire anyone who insisted on asking for one.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

Ok...so regulate it when there is a bailout. Not otherwise. And if you really think that CEOs do nothing, you've been spending too much time inhaling machine parts cleaner.

Can you explain then what exactly a CEO does in relation to the board, the stable full of VPs and Senior VPs, and the unit, district, division, and other various levels of "manager" can you differentiate exactly why this "king of kings" even exists when we have all this other "leadership?"

Oh an I inhale the parts cleaner because someone in an office somewhere decided rather than admit we ran out and stop production for two hours to restock from Fastenal we'd just pretend that they weren't required or necessary for the job and fire anyone who insisted on asking for one.

Sure. A CEO is responsible to the shareholders that the company runs smoothly. He also assists in the tough decisions. More ofteh than not he has a significant amount of capital invested.

I notice you haven't answered my question about hoe much schooling you havem how many student loans you have.

Other than responding with anger that is.

Whatever your comment about parts cleaner is kinda of strange. You sound to me like you create a lot of waves at whatever job you go to. No wonder you were fired.

 

[Plecostomus]

Ok...so regulate it when there is a bailout. Not otherwise. And if you really think that CEOs do nothing, you've been spending too much time inhaling machine parts cleaner.

Can you explain then what exactly a CEO does in relation to the board, the stable full of VPs and Senior VPs, and the unit, district, division, and other various levels of "manager" can you differentiate exactly why this "king of kings" even exists when we have all this other "leadership?"

Oh an I inhale the parts cleaner because someone in an office somewhere decided rather than admit we ran out and stop production for two hours to restock from Fastenal we'd just pretend that they weren't required or necessary for the job and fire anyone who insisted on asking for one.

Sure. A CEO is responsible to the shareholders that the company runs smoothly. He also assists in the tough decisions. More ofteh than not he has a significant amount of capital invested.

I notice you haven't answered my question about hoe much schooling you havem how many student loans you have.

Other than responding with anger that is.

Actually I missed that part, I'm an engineer by schooling and a machinist/sheetmetal worker by trade. I've paid off my loans though, wasn't easy. Lots of eating nothing but ramen and rice-a-roni.

Got tired of office politics, and went back to school to become a machinist, that was four years of school plus the apprenticeship. Actually that's considered "backwards" most people go the other route, decide to become an engineer after working the machines and getting good at the problem-solving.

Also, and this might not make sense to someone outside a trade but I also own my own tools. Spent more on them than I did my car actually.

Whatever your comment about parts cleaner is kinda of strange. You sound to me like you create a lot of waves at whatever job you go to. No wonder you were fired.

Actually this didn't happen to me but I witnessed it happening... and its not "making waves" to request a safety device that is required by OSHA and also by State Law. Not trying to be nasty here but as a lawyer you should understand that sort of thing. Something is required by law you cannot legally deny it to a worker. Safety goggles, ear-plugs, masks, solvent gloves...

The laws as written in New York would afford a serious measure of protection for workers if we could get them enforced across the board. Healthcare costs would drop because the shlub that gets exposed to cleaner-fumes isn't hospitalized for lung issues... the company would have money to grow and money left over thanks to not getting sued or fined by OSHA...

All I'm asking is for the upper levels to stop thinking about adding another dozen gold bricks to the already full vault and seriously consider thier actions on a local and global scale beyond that of short-term profit.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

Actually this didn't happen to me but I witnessed it happening... and its not "making waves" to request a safety device that is required by OSHA and also by State Law. Not trying to be nasty here but as a lawyer you should understand that sort of thing. Something is required by law you cannot legally deny it to a worker. Safety goggles, ear-plugs, masks, solvent gloves...

Well duh...but your post wasn't very clear. And you do seem to like to make waves in your jobs.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

You sound to me like you create a lot of waves at whatever job you go to. No wonder you were fired.

Comments like these don't contribute to the discussion. Thanks.




On topic, there are a number of levels of leadership in any organization:

5 levels of leadership

1. get the job done
2. level 1 & identify problems
3. level 2 & develop solutions
4. level 3 & mobilize groups of people
5. level 4 & create a vision and culture for the organization

and the compensation goes up with each level with the highest compensation being at level 5. Having a compelling vision and culture for the organization does more to drive profitability and success than the guy who shows up, does his job and leaves.

A lot of people get stuck at level 3 - they can do the job, see the problems, and even create solutions for the problems; but when it comes to getting a group to go somewhere they haven't been before it's hard to do.

The CEO's role is to create a compelling vision for the company that will inspire the employees, create market share, and increase the stock price. The CEO is also responsible for creating a culture at the company where the right things are rewarded and the wrong things are not.

Someone could have the best idea in the world, but if they can't get people behind them, it won't make a difference or any money.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that a great percentage of CEO compensation is in the form of stock bonuses - many of them restricted so that the CEO can't sell them immediately but instead has to wait a specified period of time before cashing in.

So it's in the CEO's best interest to do everything possible in line with the company vision to increase the share price - that's how the CEO wins big.

In the corporation I work for, our stock price has gone down $36/share in the last year. Our CEO and officers' net worth has gone down proportionally as well.

CEO compensation should be tied to company results. If the company tanks on your watch, you shouldn't get rewarded. If the company tanks on your watch and you need my money to stay afloat, you shouldn't get rewarded.

 

[Plecostomus]

Actually this didn't happen to me but I witnessed it happening... and its not "making waves" to request a safety device that is required by OSHA and also by State Law. Not trying to be nasty here but as a lawyer you should understand that sort of thing. Something is required by law you cannot legally deny it to a worker. Safety goggles, ear-plugs, masks, solvent gloves...

Well duh...but your post wasn't very clear. And you do seem to like to make waves in your jobs.

Nah, not really I try to keep a low profile as much as possible. All I want to do is run the machines, that's what I like to do. That's what I'm good at. My hobbies interest few, my religion offends many, and my desire to sit and read at my bench rather than gather in the cafeteria and gossip marks me as anti-social.

Also, I don't "look" like I'm "old enough" according to quite a few people out there, yet another reason to just show up every day and do the best job possible.

Where I run into problems is "hey he's the best operator we have and he shows up every day lets make him a Lead."

Yeah. I am not a frigging leader, coupled with the fact that no one wants to be lead by someone who "appears" to be "too young" and you end up with problems. Coupled with the fact I know OSHA requirements for my trade forwards and backwards, and I have a fair understanding of Employment Law... the downward spiral picks up speed and spikes me into the ground.

Told the owner of this place that while I may be a decent operator/programmer I am here ONLY to be an operator/programmer and I am NOT "Lead"ing anything this time around. So far it's working out good.

 

[Red Ranger]

Well, since I posted this, let me weigh in again with my reaction to some of the opinions expressed here.

For those of you who think tax cuts are the answer, I say, "Fie!" Neither tax cuts alone, or government spending alone, will solve our current financial crisis. The current balance is about right.

As for Wall Street fat cats, I have two words: Clawback provision. In other words, any firm accepting bailout funds needs to be brought to heel. Place more conditions on that money, and take it back when companies break those provisions, like paying obscene bonuses to execs whose decisions caused this crisis. I think Obama and the Democratic-controlled Congress have the people's desire behind them on this issue. Don't want the government to tell you what to pay your execs? Then don't accept TARP funds. Simple.

I do understand the anger of some of you toward these execs, but I don't think the answer is a blanket restriction on corporate pay. That's up to the boards of companies, and shareholders, to rein in executive compensation. And I say this as a liberal Democrat who's also a capitalist. I want to make more money, too! Hell, so does everyone!

Red Ranger

 

[John Picard]

Analysis: Stimulus bill that's not all stimulating

They call it "stimulus" legislation, but the economic measures racing through Congress would devote tens of billions of dollars to causes that have little to do with jolting the country out of recession.

There's $345 million for Agriculture Department computers,

$650 million for TV converter boxes,

$15 billion for college scholarships — worthy, perhaps, but not likely to put many Americans back to work quickly.


Yes, there are many billions of dollars in "ready-to-go" job-creating projects in President Barack Obama's economic stimulus bill. But there are also plenty of items that are just unfinished business for Congress' old bulls.

But nothing is in the legislation by accident. By including in the Senate stimulus bill such far-ranging ideas as $40 million to convert the way health statistics are collected — from paper to an electronic system — lawmakers are able to thin out their in-boxes, even if they aren't doing much to create jobs.
There's also $380 million in the Senate bill for a rainy day fund for the Women, Infants and Children program that delivers healthful food to the poor. WIC got a $1 billion infusion last fall.

Some lawmakers are sounding warnings.
"I suggested ... less spending and especially less spending for those items that are not stimulus and should be funded through the regular appropriations process," said Rep. Jerry Lewis of California, top Republican on the Appropriations Committee.
*
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For example, just one-third of $30 billion proposed by the House for highway construction would reach the economy in the next year and a half, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
*
*
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"You don't want to be against Pell Grants," Nelson said. "But the question is, how many people go to work on Pell Grants? Should it be in this legislation if it's about jobs?"

Let's try this again --> P-O-R-K.

 

[Red Ranger]

^O John Picard, John Picard, John Picard! Your conservative talking points are as obvious as a 42nd Street hooker's g-string. The GOP has misquoted and mischaracerized that infamous CBO report six ways from Sunday. The AP was hoodwinked. You know, repeating a lie may have, in the past, made it seem true. Nice work! In other words, your characterization of the bill as just P-O-R-K is simply B-U-L-L! -- RR

 

[Gertch]

Forty-two percent (42%) of the nation’s likely voters now support the president’s plan Ouch.

So much for Obama's sinister "I won, I will trump you on that."


But at least he did as he said and brought bipartisanship when 11 Democrats crossed the aisle and voted with ALL the Republicans.

 

[Red Ranger]

Forty-two percent (42%) of the nation’s likely voters now support the president’s plan Ouch.

So much for Obama's sinister "I won, I will trump you on that."


But at least he did as he said and brought bipartisanship when 11 Democrats crossed the aisle and voted with ALL the Republicans.

Oh, and we know how objective The Rasmussen Report is, since Larry Kudlow endorses it wholeheartedly, and we know how non-partisan he is! "Coming soon, the collected unintended comedic wit of Gertch! On DVD NOW!" Try to pick an objective source next time and you might convince someone. Since you're always rapping people who cite The Boston Globe and The New York Times, I thought one good turn deserves another. -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

BTW, here are two useful links. The first is the definition of "clawback provision":

http://www.answers.com/topic/clawback

And this is an article in Treasury & Risk Magazine about the growing number of shareholder-approved clawback provisions:

http://www.treasuryandrisk.com/Issues/2008/July-August%202008/Pages/ClawbackProvisionsSoar.aspx

I posted these so you know I know what I'm talking about. I'm not just speaking out of my nether region.

Red Ranger