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Obama in for 2012? Where do you stand?

Where do you stand on Obama?

  • Voted for him. Still support him.

    Votes: 70 57.4%
  • Voted for him. Do not support him anymore.

    Votes: 10 8.2%
  • Eh. Undecided/Don't Care/Never did.

    Votes: 8 6.6%
  • Did not vote for him. Support him now.

    Votes: 6 4.9%
  • Did not vote for him. Still do not support him.

    Votes: 28 23.0%

  • Total voters
    122

And how do you propose to get 2/3 of House and Senate to agree to such an insanely radical change to the constitution?

First off, I would not call this insane. It would have to be debated amendment by amendment, for starters, not all at once. And secondly, the key would be for the American people to debate the changes and then put pressure on their senators and congresspeople.

But I suggest starting with term limits first. That will clear some of the roadblocks towards the rest.
 
Some of it I don't have time to debate right now, but here are a few points on a few of the topics.

It's the Supreme Court's job to interpret such things, which they have done many times over the past 200 years. You may not like the results, but there you go.

But to assume that the Supreme Court can never err, and we should just go with whatever crazy BS they turn out (like Plessy v. Ferguson or the Dred Scott case), totally ignores the concept of checks and balances. Why, of the three branches of government, should the Supreme Court be treated as omnipotent and omniscient? If something in the Constitution is so ridiculous that it results in intolerable verdicts, that's what the amendment process is for. If enough people don't like the results, then they'll plug the "leak."

Well, you can't have it both ways. A concise, vague document will be open to interpretation. The only way to leave no wiggle room is to have a massive, overly-specific document that covers every possible eventuality. It's a tradeoff either way.

There is an appropriate balance, yes--but if the thing gets too bloated, there is no way it can be debated appropriately by the American people, who have a right to be involved in the process since it would be a fundamental change.

You're right, you would need an Amendment to deal with that, because as far as the current Constitution goes it is a settled matter--people born here are citizens, period.

I am sure something could be appropriately written to ensure that all current born and naturalized citizens are protected, and that those who are caught here illegally are treated appropriately during deportation proceedings (i.e. no brutality, and assurance of basic medical treatment, etc...no reason to be cruel even if someone has broken the law).

We also need to acknowledge that there is no feasible way to deport ~14 million people. We can deport some of them, but when you get down to what's realistic in terms of manpower and budget, we're never going to make more than a small dent in those numbers. Best to just find ways to accommodate people who are already here and provide appealing avenues for legal immigration or even temporary work visas.

I actually thought that the immigration reform proposal during the Bush administration was a good start since it would have included a path to citizenship for those who have been here and do not have a criminal record, and was not happy with the far right for trying to take it down. (I consider myself conservative, but am not a total hardliner on all issues.) The trick is to couple a path to citizenship with real enforcement of immigration laws, and disincentivizing people from going around the proper, legal process rather than claiming to be against illegal immigration on one hand but giving out all sorts of free services (beyond emergency medical treatment--if someone's at risk of death or disability, they MUST be treated) to illegals. (Add to that streamlining of the legal immigration process to make sure people are better served, who do follow the rules.)

This is one of those ideas that always gets trotted out but is a horrible concept in practice. All term limits do is rotate people in and out of office. Government is a complicated business, and having novices take over every few years just means the people doing the job won't have any idea how government actually functions. It also means that those who know their time is about up will spend their term trying to secure future employment, which is spelled c-o-r-r-u-p-t-i-o-n. Not that our current legislators aren't corrupt, but term limits are likely to make it worse, not better.

Our current career legislators are VERY corrupt. I am not sure you'd have any system that would eliminate corruption, but shaking the system up every so often, getting new eyes on what's going on, would help to keep some more "daylight" on things. (Though of course we do still need to make sure the feds keep an eye on any possible corruption.)

As to how the government actually functions...I am of the mind that the general principle of it is not that hard to understand, and that there are a lot of "how it's always been done" traditions that are so ridiculous they just need to be swept out.

A "read the bill" amendment. All bills should have to be released in their entirety for public comment, criticism, and debate for a certain period of time proportionate to its length. No more passing the bill to find out what's in it. OK, so what if it's an emergency? Well, given the abuses that could happen if we allowed Congress to determine willy-nilly what's an emergency and what should be rammed down people's throats without the proper debate time, I would say don't provide an emergency power to go around that amendment. In fact--if it IS an emergency, that should be a clue that there isn't any time to go loading the bill with your loopholes and pet projects, then, shouldn't it? ;)
Congresspeople have staffs to read bills for them and boil it down. I really don't want my Senators and Representatives spending every waking hour holed up in their office reading legislation. They pay staff members to do this and bring to their attention anything that needs it.

I agree that a bill should have a minimum "cooling off" period between its introduction and a vote, to ensure everyone has had time to review it.

I'm not saying that staff can't assist with the process, since Congress does debate more than one bill at a time (not to mention what each representative has in committee versus what's actually on the floor). But a reasonable time has to be allowed so that they can have a much, much stronger, more comprehensive idea of what's going on.

But since the American people have a right to be in on the process, their ability to thoroughly read and review each bill is also a concern. And if Congress is going to try to load a bill full of pet projects...then the review period should extend proportionately.
 
But since the American people have a right to be in on the process, their ability to thoroughly read and review each bill is also a concern.
Good grief, no. People elect representatives to deal with this stuff. You know, people who are supposed to know about politics, and law, and administration and all that shit (well, considering some of the people who get elected, I can see your point, but that's an argument for having more qualified representatives, not less). You feel sick, you go to a trained physician. Your car breaks down, you go to a qualified mechanics. People have this idea that politics is something for everybody, mom-and-pop types running for Congress and bringing "common sense" to Washington. Bullishit. The last thing you need, it's amateurs in politics.
 
But hey, it's not just him. Newt says we need to be on the lookout for the improbable alliance of "secular atheist radical Islamists" trying to dominate the country. They mostly come at night... mostly.

"I have two grandchildren — Maggie is 11, Robert is 9," Gingrich said at Cornerstone Church here. "I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time they're my age they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists and with no understanding of what it once meant to be an American."

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=FA69C849-0CF8-B928-3126F447E4E7A834

Welcome to my world. Sadly, Newt Gingrich was my congressman for many years...and hypocritical whack-job that he is, incredibly, still has a very large power base here in Georgia, where he has almost god-like status.

I am hoping with all my might that the rest of the universe is not anywhere near as gullible. Because this guy is sort of like taking the worst qualities of Bush, and combining them with the worse qualities of Chaney...and smashing them together in the Giant Super-collider From Hell.
 
There's nothing about the administration that surprises me...I predicted exactly what's happening: a long hard financial struggle, which Obama has only played a small part in, pro or con at this point. He deserves 4 more years for trying harder than any other modern president.

RAMA
 
"I have two grandchildren — Maggie is 11, Robert is 9," Gingrich said at Cornerstone Church here. "I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time they're my age they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists and with no understanding of what it once meant to be an American."

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=FA69C849-0CF8-B928-3126F447E4E7A834

But, but, but. But, this is a contradiction without the finesse of inserting even a sentence break between P and NOT P. Do people really buy this stuff?
 
"I have two grandchildren — Maggie is 11, Robert is 9," Gingrich said at Cornerstone Church here. "I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time they're my age they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists and with no understanding of what it once meant to be an American."

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=FA69C849-0CF8-B928-3126F447E4E7A834
But, but, but. But, this is a contradiction without the finesse of inserting even a sentence break between P and NOT P. Do people really buy this stuff?

It doesn't make sense.

The most one could logically say is that secular atheists and radical Islamists have a shared interest in wanting the Christian influence on Western society gone--but after that point, they would be at absolute loggerheads again. In other words, the most you would have is a temporary alliance of convenience. One I think is possible in some cases, but has an inherent "shelf life" on it.

(And because I can't resist...I would say it's like an alliance between Klingons and Romulans. Or, for a DS9 metaphor, Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order.)
 
^ And, it's not supposed to make sense - it's all about stirring up fear and hatred, in that order. Truth or even logic are irrelevant.

Alas, it seems that many are indeed just stupid enough to buy it.
 
Mind you, I do believe the alliance of convenience I suggested can exist and sometimes does--but is inherently temporary in nature. Any final regime, were such an alliance to gain the upper hand, would have to decide between one or the other and would likely end up with civil war to settle the matter. You'd be looking at a period of chaos, in the interim.

(Actually a scenario I have worked with for possible use in a fanfic...)
 
^ And, it's not supposed to make sense - it's all about stirring up fear and hatred, in that order. Truth or even logic are irrelevant.

Alas, it seems that many are indeed just stupid enough to buy it.
I'm just kinda surprised that the clumsy construction (in the way Newt makes the contradictory elements abut, without any finesse whatsoever) is still so effective. I'm surprised that it doesn't backfire, because it is therefore so transparently incendiary. I guess the transparency must not register to some people.
 
^ It's what they want to hear. They want to be persecuted, because deep down they sense that they're hateful morons - but if people are being mean to them, maybe they're not the slothful, capricious villains of today's Planet Earth after all. Gingrich is a very smart guy, so whenever someone of his intellectual caliber whores himself out for that kind of dirty work, they embrace him/it unquestioningly, because they don't know any better themselves, and don't want to find out.

Mind you, I do believe the alliance of convenience I suggested can exist and sometimes does
Between atheists and reactionary Islamists? Examples, please. And "opposing the Iraq/Afghanistan presences/wars" isn't an "alliance of convenience" if the two groups don't even speak to each other; then it's a coincidentally and mutually isolating shared goal. An alliance without dialogue is no alliance at all.
 
^ And, it's not supposed to make sense - it's all about stirring up fear and hatred, in that order. Truth or even logic are irrelevant.

Alas, it seems that many are indeed just stupid enough to buy it.
I'm just kinda surprised that the clumsy construction (in the way Newt makes the contradictory elements abut, without any finesse whatsoever) is still so effective. I'm surprised that it doesn't backfire, because it is therefore so transparently incendiary. I guess the transparency must not register to some people.

People hear what they want to hear.
 
^ And, it's not supposed to make sense - it's all about stirring up fear and hatred, in that order. Truth or even logic are irrelevant.

Alas, it seems that many are indeed just stupid enough to buy it.
I'm just kinda surprised that the clumsy construction (in the way Newt makes the contradictory elements abut, without any finesse whatsoever) is still so effective. I'm surprised that it doesn't backfire, because it is therefore so transparently incendiary. I guess the transparency must not register to some people.

People hear what they want to hear.

Thank you! I would love a sandwich right now!
 
I'm just kinda surprised that the clumsy construction (in the way Newt makes the contradictory elements abut, without any finesse whatsoever) is still so effective. I'm surprised that it doesn't backfire, because it is therefore so transparently incendiary. I guess the transparency must not register to some people.

People hear what they want to hear.

Thank you! I would love a sandwich right now!

:lol:
 
Mind you, I do believe the alliance of convenience I suggested can exist and sometimes does
Between atheists and reactionary Islamists? Examples, please. And "opposing the Iraq/Afghanistan presences/wars" isn't an "alliance of convenience" if the two groups don't even speak to each other; then it's a coincidentally and mutually isolating shared goal. An alliance without dialogue is no alliance at all.

You'd be looking at something pretty tenuous, the equivalent of both submitting an amicus brief on the same Supreme Court case because the potential ruling could favor both. In fact, the legal arena is where you would most likely see it--for a time...because eventually, if Christian influence were to be eliminated, you'd then have the inherently incompatible desires for total secularization if not banning of religious expression versus sharia law. "Tinderbox" wouldn't even begin to sum that up. It would get nasty, fast.
 
Mind you, I do believe the alliance of convenience I suggested can exist and sometimes does
Between atheists and reactionary Islamists? Examples, please. And "opposing the Iraq/Afghanistan presences/wars" isn't an "alliance of convenience" if the two groups don't even speak to each other; then it's a coincidentally and mutually isolating shared goal. An alliance without dialogue is no alliance at all.

You'd be looking at something pretty tenuous, the equivalent of both submitting an amicus brief on the same Supreme Court case because the potential ruling could favor both. In fact, the legal arena is where you would most likely see it--for a time...because eventually, if Christian influence were to be eliminated, you'd then have the inherently incompatible desires for total secularization if not banning of religious expression versus sharia law. "Tinderbox" wouldn't even begin to sum that up. It would get nasty, fast.

You know, most atheists don't want to be persecuted or bothered. They're not out to oppress people of any religious stripe.
 
The same can be said of most Muslims, too (not wanting trouble or to be the cause of trouble). The problem is that fanatics can appear in any group, irrespective of religiosity or lack thereof, and when they happen to get power, things can get dangerous very fast. Human nature being what it is, this is always a threat.
 
The same can be said of most Muslims, too (not wanting trouble or to be the cause of trouble). The problem is that fanatics can appear in any group, irrespective of religiosity or lack thereof, and when they happen to get power, things can get dangerous very fast. Human nature being what it is, this is always a threat.


Yet the same can be said of Christians, and so far we've managed, as a nation, to keep the worst aspects of fundamentalism at bay. That should apply to any group.
 
I had assumed that to be implicit in my statement, but spoke specifically about atheists and Muslims because those were the two groups being discussed above.
 
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