NuTrek references in the novels

[Timewalker]

Now, let's get back to poking fun at Greg Cox for daring to put Voyager within a TOS novel (Something I'm really intrigued by...)
Crossovers that are acknowledged as crossovers are fine and can be fun. But given how many decades separate Kirk and Janeway, I'd expect to see a plausible explanation for having the two in the same story (yes, I'm reasonably sure Mr. Cox is going for humor in his previous post and if he really intended to write such a book, he wouldn't be talking about it in this thread). .

Actually, it's more of a Kirk/Seven of Nine book and it's coming out at the end of the February. For real!

And, yeah, perhaps the whole "warning label" thing has gotten out of hand. The original idea was to poke a little fun at the idea that a stray reference to another flavor of Star Trek (or even Doctor Who or Here Comes the Brides) was enough to somehow contaminate or spoil an otherwise fun book. And that NuTrek in particular was somehow so radioactive that merely trace amounts could provoke an allergic response.

Okay, I stand corrected. And since Seven of Nine is my favorite Voyager character, I'm happy to see her in a novel.

I actually do enjoy crossovers - I never noticed a lot of the ones in Ishmael, but I think my reasons for being annoyed at the Doctor Who references are reasonable. I just don't like Abrams' version of Star Trek and would prefer that it stay by itself.

A good crossover can be quite a challenge - I discovered that a couple of years ago when I did my NaNoWriMo entry. My crossover was the Sliders TV series and Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale.

 

[Leto_II]

I think we are closing on the events of Star Trek '09 rather faster than some of the authors expected. I really hope the editing staff have a plan.

At the very least the Romulan political response to the reunification movement in general, and Spock in particular needs to be lined up.

Not to mention the whole, "Enterprise-E/B-4/Captain Data"-situation established in the '09 Countdown comic series.

The time will be fast approaching in the chronology when this subject will need to be either addressed or ignored within the Pocket Books continuity -- the MMO and The Needs of the Many depict the "B-4" personality being submerged/deleted in favor of the "Data"-matrix in 2385, but The Persistence of Memory depicts a very different version of the Data-personality's re-emergence.

Neither continuities accounts for Data II's re-entry into Starfleet before the year 2384 ends (in fact, Data actually turns down a commission for personal reasons), although there's still ample time in which this could happen; a commission-reactivation likely wouldn't be a huge issue with someone of Picard's stature sponsoring it, for example.

The real question will be, how "sacrosanct" will the '09 Countdown series' version of events be leading up to the Hobus Supernova in 2387, and how obligated will the novel-authors feel to uphold (or dispense with) that series' lead-up to the nova?

As someone else pointed out, the groundwork is going to have to be laid in addressing how the Typhon Pact and Khitomer Alliance fit into that timeframe two or three chronology-years down the road (assuming they're even still in existence at that point), particularly after the nova occurs. There are already several major pre-Hobus timeline-divergences between the MMO and the novels, and this could widen further in the next couple of years.

 

[JD]

I don't think the books have ever been required to follow anything from another medium other that TV/Movies, I don't see why that would change. As far as I know the Bad Robot people have no power over the Prime Universe stuff, so I don't see them having any power to force them too follow them.

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I actually do enjoy crossovers - I never noticed a lot of the ones in Ishmael, but I think my reasons for being annoyed at the Doctor Who references are reasonable. I just don't like Abrams' version of Star Trek and would prefer that it stay by itself.

A good crossover can be quite a challenge - I discovered that a couple of years ago when I did my NaNoWriMo entry. My crossover was the Sliders TV series and Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale.

What about stuff that would exist in both universes that was introduced in the Abrams movies, like the new alien races or the Kelvin, would those be ok?

 

[Timewalker]

I don't think the books have ever been required to follow anything from another medium other that TV/Movies, I don't see why that would change. As far as I know the Bad Robot people have no power over the Prime Universe stuff, so I don't see them having any power to force them too follow them.

.

I actually do enjoy crossovers - I never noticed a lot of the ones in Ishmael, but I think my reasons for being annoyed at the Doctor Who references are reasonable. I just don't like Abrams' version of Star Trek and would prefer that it stay by itself.

A good crossover can be quite a challenge - I discovered that a couple of years ago when I did my NaNoWriMo entry. My crossover was the Sliders TV series and Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale.

What about stuff that would exist in both universes that was introduced in the Abrams movies, like the new alien races or the Kelvin, would those be ok?

Since I have yet to see STID, I have no idea what you're talking about. To me, "Kelvin" is a scale for measuring temperature. The only similar-sounding word I can think of are the Kelvans (the aliens from the Andromeda Galaxy, in "By Any Other Name").

It seems like you're asking if I would accept Abrams' retconned stuff, and the answer is no. I'm not talking about things like the name of Kirk's mother. That's a detail that's trivial enough to ignore, since I've seen several names used throughout the years. It's the more important things like events, character traits, character relationships, in-universe science/physics, etc. that matter.

As an example, if I read a TOS novel, I expect to see a Chekov who is like the Walter Koenig version, not the Wesley-"child genius" version of the 2009 movie. I expect to see Spock as Leonard Nimoy portrayed him - a dignified 30-40 year old (unless it's a movie-era or TNG-era story). I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

The way I see the Abramsverse is the kind of AU-fanfic that some people write where they take canon relationships and events and say, "what if...". Some of these AU stories work quite well, and others don't. The Abramsverse, in my opinion, just doesn't work. It's too jarring.

Another problem is the actors. Simply giving the Kirk actor (can't remember his name) a costume and hairdo that makes him superficially resemble William Shatner just isn't enough to make me believe he is an AU version of Kirk. To me he has all the charisma of a cardboard runway model, which isn't much. Ditto for Quinto, the Uhura actress, and others. They simply have not been able to tap into what makes the characters tick, and this is a huge part of why I can't stand them and don't believe they are who the screen credits tell me they are. And since I "hear" the actors' voices in my mind as I read the characters' dialogue, there's a disconnect.

 

[Therin of Andor]

the MMO and The Needs of the Many depict the "B-4" personality being submerged/deleted in favor of the "Data"-matrix in 2385

Already clarified in the short stories, set in the game's universe:

Spoiler: Star Trek Magazine short stories' B-4

There is a separate android body containing B-4's personality, so Data did not "kill" B-4 and overtake his memories/experiences after all.

I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

Mmmmm. How did you ever handle the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of TOS, and its sequels in DS9 and prequel in ENT? And the novels "TNG: Dark Mirror" and "Dark Passions". And the alternate universes of TNG's "Parallels"?

 

[DimesDan]

Well I guess I stand corrected and that explains the self entitlement that blares from every single one of your posts you write.

You're crossing the line into getting personal, Dimesdan, the self entitlement comment isn't warranted.

My apologies, I forgot where I was and the whole, post not poster thing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Since I have yet to see STID, I have no idea what you're talking about. To me, "Kelvin" is a scale for measuring temperature. The only similar-sounding word I can think of are the Kelvans (the aliens from the Andromeda Galaxy, in "By Any Other Name").

The USS Kelvin NCC-0514, the ship Jim Kirk's parents served on at the start of the '09 Star Trek movie.

It seems like you're asking if I would accept Abrams' retconned stuff, and the answer is no. I'm not talking about things like the name of Kirk's mother. That's a detail that's trivial enough to ignore, since I've seen several names used throughout the years.

The new movies use George and Winona as the names of Kirk's parents, taken from the classic novels Enterprise: The First Adventure, Final Frontier and Best Destiny. In-universe (or rather in-multiverse), those things should be common to both universes since they pre-date the timeline tampering.

It's the more important things like events, character traits, character relationships, in-universe science/physics, etc. that matter.

As an example, if I read a TOS novel, I expect to see a Chekov who is like the Walter Koenig version, not the Wesley-"child genius" version of the 2009 movie. I expect to see Spock as Leonard Nimoy portrayed him - a dignified 30-40 year old (unless it's a movie-era or TNG-era story). I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

Those events specific to the new timeline wouldn't happen - although Spock and Uhura definitely had some attraction, which we saw in early TOS episodes which IMO could be referenced even if they never acted on it.

But the non-story-specific stuff that the new movies add which would exist in the Trek universe irrespective of angry Romulans and Old Spocks travelling into the past should be fair game for referencing - like an icy planet in the Vulcan system (which shares the name "Delta Vega" with a dusty planet at the edge of the galaxy) with a lonely Starfleet outpost on it and monsters roaming around or the new alien species seen throughout the movies - like most of the TMP aliens they've never been seen elsewhere in the franchise, but them and their worlds would exist in both timelines, and they may be Federation members in both. Maybe they were always just off-camera in TOS and the classic movies? It's an intriguing possibility, IMO.

The way I see the Abramsverse is the kind of AU-fanfic that some people write where they take canon relationships and events and say, "what if...". Some of these AU stories work quite well, and others don't. The Abramsverse, in my opinion, just doesn't work. It's too jarring

That's essentially what it is - the biggest "what if?" story ever. A madman appears in 2233, Kirk's father dies saving his crew, years later Spock's mother is killed, his planet is destroyed. That's the premise. Things get weirder when someone else finds and revives Khan...

Remember that the writers themselves probably don't love every incarnation of Trek either. I know of at least two who hated Into Darkness. And I know of a writer who hates time travel yet wrote two excellent Trek novels about it!

 

[KRAD]

I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

You need to watch "Charlie X" again. Specifically the mess-hall scene where Uhura sings. Orci and Kurtzman did a great deal of rectal yanking, but the Spock-Uhura relationship is not one of the things they pulled out of their asses.

 

[Greg Cox]

I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

You need to watch "Charlie X" again. Specifically the mess-hall scene where Uhura sings. Orci and Kurtzman did a great deal of rectal yanking, but the Spock-Uhura relationship is not one of the things they pulled out of their asses.

Heck, the very first Trek episode that ever aired, "Mantrap," had Uhura shamelessly flirting with Spock. "Tell me about the moons on your world, Mr. Spock," etc.

Granted, the original show never really developed this, but the seeds were there in the beginning . . ..

More importantly, so what if Spock and Uhura weren't involved in the original series? New timeline, new rules, radical changes . . . that's kinda the whole point.

NuTrek is not supposed to be 100% faithful to TOS.

 

[JD]

But the non-story-specific stuff that the new movies add which would exist in the Trek universe irrespective of angry Romulans and Old Spocks travelling into the past should be fair game for referencing - like an icy planet in the Vulcan system (which shares the name "Delta Vega" with a dusty planet at the edge of the galaxy) with a lonely Starfleet outpost on it and monsters roaming around or the new alien species seen throughout the movies - like most of the TMP aliens they've never been seen elsewhere in the franchise, but them and their worlds would exist in both timelines, and they may be Federation members in both. Maybe they were always just off-camera in TOS and the classic movies? It's an intriguing possibility, IMO.

This is the kind of stuff that I was referring to.

 

[Timewalker]

I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

Mmmmm. How did you ever handle the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of TOS, and its sequels in DS9 and prequel in ENT? And the novels "TNG: Dark Mirror" and "Dark Passions". And the alternate universes of TNG's "Parallels"?

Spock and Uhura were not engaging in PDA in "Mirror, Mirror." Uhura did flirt with Mirror-Sulu for a few seconds, but only to make sure he wouldn't notice what Scotty was up to. I have vague recollections that Deanna was evil in the TNG novels, and thought it was an interesting alternative take on Betazoid abilities. But those stories never claimed to be any sort of "TNG reboot". "Parallels"... where Worf kept changing universes? I don't like Worf in any universe. I'm not overly fond of Deanna either. And I remember reading about the Mirror version of ENT, but never saw any episodes on TV. There are at least 2 seasons' worth of that show I never watched.

I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

You need to watch "Charlie X" again. Specifically the mess-hall scene where Uhura sings. Orci and Kurtzman did a great deal of rectal yanking, but the Spock-Uhura relationship is not one of the things they pulled out of their asses.

I've seen Charlie X quite enough times, thank you. There are a couple of really horrible scenes in that episode that have put it firmly on my "Never Watching This Ever Again Because It's Enough To Give Me Nightmares" list. Uhura was flirting with Spock, and he was in the mood to play along (both literally and in the sense of camaraderie - or maybe it was just that Leonard Nimoy had trouble keeping a straight face during the song?). I maintain that they had a properly respectful professional relationship, and a respectful friendship (since they share an interest in music, that makes sense). At no time would I expect to see Original Spock and Original Uhura kissing anywhere, never mind in public, or while on duty.

I really wish you would all stop assuming that because I don't like nuTrek, that means I also must not like other deviations from the run of the mill Trek. None of those others ever claimed that THEY were now the "official" Star Trek.

What's next - you're going to say that because I hate Brussels sprouts, I must hate every other green vegetable?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I really wish you would all stop assuming that because I don't like nuTrek, that means I also must not like other deviations from the run of the mill Trek. None of those others ever claimed that THEY were now the "official" Star Trek.

The entire concept of Trek canon (what's "real" Trek and what isn't) began with Roddenberry's decree that the novels and The Animated Series don't count around the start of The Next Generation. If that's not saying "This is official Star Trek, that isn't" then I don't know what is.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The entire concept of Trek canon (what's "real" Trek and what isn't) began with Roddenberry's decree that the novels and The Animated Series don't count around the start of The Next Generation. If that's not saying "This is official Star Trek, that isn't" then I don't know what is.

That's not what was proposed, though. The decree was made during the hiatus between Seasons One and Two, and the statement was most often being quoted by Richard Arnold, attempting to answer questions by fans at ST conventions and in "The Communicator", the official newsletter of the Official Fan Club.

Essentially, fans were bringing up continuity clashes between the novels and comics vs TNG and the TOS movies, such as "How can Worf be the first Klingon to serve on a Federation ship when we saw Konom do so, under Kirk, in the DC Comic?"

Of course, TAS had not been available to most viewers in several years, Filmation was being wound down and sold off in chunks, and the novels and comics are still read by only about 2% of the audience, so why should TNG's writers be forced to comply with every licensed tie-in, which often already clashed with each other anyway?

"That memo" of 1989 was directed at licensees, not fans.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Whoever they aimed it at originally, Arnold was still essentially telling fans what's official Trek and what isn't (something I don't believe Abrams' team have done, beyond parroting "only what's on-screen is canon"). I'm not saying it's right or wrong for them to have done so.

 

[KRAD]

Uhura was flirting with Spock, and he was in the mood to play along (both literally and in the sense of camaraderie - or maybe it was just that Leonard Nimoy had trouble keeping a straight face during the song?). I maintain that they had a properly respectful professional relationship, and a respectful friendship (since they share an interest in music, that makes sense). At no time would I expect to see Original Spock and Original Uhura kissing anywhere, never mind in public, or while on duty.

That's your interpretation. And it's a valid one -- but so is the interpretation of Orci and Kurtzman that it's perfectly possible that the two were in a relationship.

My point was, that relationship wasn't some crazy thing they threw in there out of nowhere -- there's evidence in TOS to support the notion, primarily in "Charlie X" and "The Man Trap."

 

[SeerSGB]

Whoever they aimed it at originally, Arnold was still essentially telling fans what's official Trek and what isn't (something I don't believe Abrams' team have done, beyond parroting "only what's on-screen is canon"). I'm not saying it's right or wrong for them to have done so.

If I understand the history correctly, Arnold was/is a bit of an interesting character when it comes to his role in the franchise.

Uhura was flirting with Spock, and he was in the mood to play along (both literally and in the sense of camaraderie - or maybe it was just that Leonard Nimoy had trouble keeping a straight face during the song?). I maintain that they had a properly respectful professional relationship, and a respectful friendship (since they share an interest in music, that makes sense). At no time would I expect to see Original Spock and Original Uhura kissing anywhere, never mind in public, or while on duty.

That's your interpretation. And it's a valid one -- but so is the interpretation of Orci and Kurtzman that it's perfectly possible that the two were in a relationship.

My point was, that relationship wasn't some crazy thing they threw in there out of nowhere -- there's evidence in TOS to support the notion, primarily in "Charlie X" and "The Man Trap."

I've not seen anything in terms of the characters backstory that was created completely from vapor in the Nu-Trek movies. Like it or not, we should at least be grateful that the Nu-Trek team put in the effort to research the EU to fill in the gaps left by the shows and movies, rather than just pull something out of their ass. Hell, they could have made a campy "homage" to Star Trek (think the 1980s Dragnet comedy film) instead of telling a serious sci-fi film.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Spock/Uhura is logical.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Hell, they could have made a campy "homage" to Star Trek (think the 1980s Dragnet comedy film) instead of telling a serious sci-fi film.

Or "The Brady Bunch" movie, which was hilarious and clever (but probably didn't need two more sequels).

 

[Greg Cox]

Honestly, the whole Spock/Uhura thing is one of my favorite parts of the reboot, precisely because this is unexplored territory.

 

[SeerSGB]

Honestly, the whole Spock/Uhura thing is one of my favorite parts of the reboot, precisely because this is unexplored territory.

Well not if you read slash-fic...just saying.

Still. These two are a better fit (no pun) than Chapel and Spock. Uhura--TOS and Nu--actually seems like the sort of woman that Spock would interested in.