NuTrek: A homosexual's perspective

[Thestral]

Sure. You don't think the implication was that Cupcake was attracted to Uhura, and that's why he interrupted Kirk's conversation with her? It's not an absolute given, which is why I put presumably in my initial post, but it's certainly the most likely motivation.

Hmm, I suppose that's a good point, but I didn't pick up that implication; I read it more as "Cupcake's a jackass that likes to fight and thinks townies are lesser than cadets" - him getting pissed at Jim hitting on Uhura was more to do with that sense of superiority and (maybe) watching out for his friend. I wasn't disagreeing that Cupcake almost certainly is hetero, I was just surprised you listed him so confidently.

And as I stated above, there's no reason why one of these characters can't have gay adoptive parents. I certainly don't want them to replace the characters that we already know, but there's plenty we don't know...

True enough re: Demora, but when Kirk says "it wouldn't be the Enterprise without a Sulu at the helm" that speaks more to genetic legacy and resonates as a biological relationship; she's a Sulu because she's a good pilot like her father, "naturally gifted" in a sense. Even that, if you wanted to, could be sci-fi'd to have Demora be the product of gay parents, but seems stretching.

I'd hardly call them bad examples. They are perfect examples of how pervasive heterosexuality is in these films. It was stated above that in a two hour movie there isn't time for such relationships, but that's patently false. We know about McCoy's based off of ten seconds of dialogue that didn't advance the plot but did get a laugh.

Displaying humans (and their genetically compatible extraterrestrial fellows) as the product typically of sexual biological reproduction is an example of pervasive heterosexuality? Sorry, I don't follow, especially as a core of Spock's identity is his divided biological nature.

Something like McCoy's is a good point, easily established as one character asking a male character "how's your husband?" as an aside with no special attention drawn to it.

 

[moogybaby]

We are talking about homosexual characters in Trek. I'm stating my preference for what I'd like to see. We've already had enough lesbian/bi action in Trek. What about some actual gay content. And I don't mean someone like Lt. Hawk who it was never stated on-screen that he was gay.

I just don't want a Jack from Will & Grace in space. It would just seem utterly ridiculous to have a lisping limp-wristed queen in space. But that's just me. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

RegentWorf,

Here's an interesting question. Approximately 3.5 to 5 % of the American population identify as homosexual.

Approximately, 10 million people identify as Serbian.

Is your point that Star Trek should represent orientation/ethic orientation as a realistic depiction of their concentration in society, or is it that you feel homosexuals should receive recognition in Trek, regardless of their number, for another reason entirely?

Just trying to understand what your issue is.

Thanks.

Tom

 

[Captain Fine]

We are talking about homosexual characters in Trek. I'm stating my preference for what I'd like to see. We've already had enough lesbian/bi action in Trek. What about some actual gay content. And I don't mean someone like Lt. Hawk who it was never stated on-screen that he was gay.

I just don't want a Jack from Will & Grace in space. It would just seem utterly ridiculous to have a lisping limp-wristed queen in space. But that's just me. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

RegentWorf,

Here's an interesting question. Approximately 3.5 to 5 % of the American population identify as homosexual.

Approximately, 10 million people identify as Serbian.

Is your point that Star Trek should represent orientation/ethic orientation as a realistic depiction of their concentration in society, or is it that you feel homosexuals should receive recognition in Trek, regardless of their number, for another reason entirely?

Just trying to understand what your issue is.

Thanks.

Tom

There's a Russian on-board the Enterprise, so there's some Slavic representation there.

Gays deserve recognition because it's the next big civil rights issue. Especially gay marriage. But this thread isn't really the place to talk about gay marriage and prop 8. Star Trek has always promoted itself as being progressive, IDIC and all that. To NOT have gay characters is just hypocritical. Even though at this point, having them wouldn't even be groundbreaking anymore.

 

[IndyJones]

SNIP

I realized reading your post that mine was a little combative. Good on you for not responding to it that way. Thanks.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

We need more Serbian characters?

 

[moogybaby]

We are talking about homosexual characters in Trek. I'm stating my preference for what I'd like to see. We've already had enough lesbian/bi action in Trek. What about some actual gay content. And I don't mean someone like Lt. Hawk who it was never stated on-screen that he was gay.

I just don't want a Jack from Will & Grace in space. It would just seem utterly ridiculous to have a lisping limp-wristed queen in space. But that's just me. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

RegentWorf,

Here's an interesting question. Approximately 3.5 to 5 % of the American population identify as homosexual.

Approximately, 10 million people identify as Serbian.

Is your point that Star Trek should represent orientation/ethic orientation as a realistic depiction of their concentration in society, or is it that you feel homosexuals should receive recognition in Trek, regardless of their number, for another reason entirely?

Just trying to understand what your issue is.

Thanks.

Tom

There's a Russian on-board the Enterprise, so there's some Slavic representation there.

Gays deserve recognition because it's the next big civil rights issue. Especially gay marriage. But this thread isn't really the place to talk about gay marriage and prop 8. Star Trek has always promoted itself as being progressive, IDIC and all that. To NOT have gay characters is just hypocritical. Even though at this point, having them wouldn't even be groundbreaking anymore.

Okay.

If the powers that be said that 1/3 of the characters on the new Enterprise were gay, how could you argue that they weren't- other than seeking some overt expression of their homosexuality?

 

[moogybaby]

We need more Serbian characters?

Under REPRESENTED!

 

[Captain Fine]

RegentWorf,

Here's an interesting question. Approximately 3.5 to 5 % of the American population identify as homosexual.

Approximately, 10 million people identify as Serbian.

Is your point that Star Trek should represent orientation/ethic orientation as a realistic depiction of their concentration in society, or is it that you feel homosexuals should receive recognition in Trek, regardless of their number, for another reason entirely?

Just trying to understand what your issue is.

Thanks.

Tom

There's a Russian on-board the Enterprise, so there's some Slavic representation there.

Gays deserve recognition because it's the next big civil rights issue. Especially gay marriage. But this thread isn't really the place to talk about gay marriage and prop 8. Star Trek has always promoted itself as being progressive, IDIC and all that. To NOT have gay characters is just hypocritical. Even though at this point, having them wouldn't even be groundbreaking anymore.

Okay.

If the powers that be said that 1/3 of the characters on the new Enterprise were gay, how could you argue that they weren't- other than seeking some overt expression of their homosexuality?

It doesn't have to be made into a big deal, as has already been pointed out earlier in this very thread. It can be very casual, mentioned in passing, whatever. It's not like we're demanding sex scenes or something.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

RegentWorf,

Here's an interesting question. Approximately 3.5 to 5 % of the American population identify as homosexual.

Approximately, 10 million people identify as Serbian.

Is your point that Star Trek should represent orientation/ethic orientation as a realistic depiction of their concentration in society, or is it that you feel homosexuals should receive recognition in Trek, regardless of their number, for another reason entirely?

Just trying to understand what your issue is.

Thanks.

Tom

There's a Russian on-board the Enterprise, so there's some Slavic representation there.

Gays deserve recognition because it's the next big civil rights issue. Especially gay marriage. But this thread isn't really the place to talk about gay marriage and prop 8. Star Trek has always promoted itself as being progressive, IDIC and all that. To NOT have gay characters is just hypocritical. Even though at this point, having them wouldn't even be groundbreaking anymore.

Okay.

If the powers that be said that 1/3 of the characters on the new Enterprise were gay, how could you argue that they weren't- other than seeking some overt expression of their homosexuality?

Uhura - Spock
Spock - Uhura
Kirk - Hetereo-er than heterosexuality itself
Sulu - No counterargument, but would be bi as opposed to totally gay
Chekov - No counterargument - hell, due to his different age, he's a different person
McCoy - Had a wife, at least bi
Scotty - No counterargument, besides the "ample nacelles" remark.

Take your pick.

 

[Captain Fine]

We need more Serbian characters?

Personally I think Poles are more underrepresented. The only one we got was Dr. Pulaski and she wasn't exactly popular. Canadians are pretty underrepresented too.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Canadians are pretty underrepresented too.

Weren't Canadians those aliens with the funny necks on DS9?

 

[moogybaby]

There's a Russian on-board the Enterprise, so there's some Slavic representation there.

Gays deserve recognition because it's the next big civil rights issue. Especially gay marriage. But this thread isn't really the place to talk about gay marriage and prop 8. Star Trek has always promoted itself as being progressive, IDIC and all that. To NOT have gay characters is just hypocritical. Even though at this point, having them wouldn't even be groundbreaking anymore.

Okay.

If the powers that be said that 1/3 of the characters on the new Enterprise were gay, how could you argue that they weren't- other than seeking some overt expression of their homosexuality?

It doesn't have to be made into a big deal, as has already been pointed out earlier in this very thread. It can be very casual, mentioned in passing, whatever. It's not like we're demanding sex scenes or something.

Without it being a plot point, how would you do it?

Even the most important love scene in the movie (Spock and Uhura's) wasn't overt. They snuck into an elevator, so as not to be noticed by their colleagues.

How might they have worked a homosexual subtext, in a way satisfying to you, into the movie that wouldn't cross the line of acceptable military behaviour and without seeming gratuitous?

Tom

 

[Captain Fine]

Okay.

If the powers that be said that 1/3 of the characters on the new Enterprise were gay, how could you argue that they weren't- other than seeking some overt expression of their homosexuality?

It doesn't have to be made into a big deal, as has already been pointed out earlier in this very thread. It can be very casual, mentioned in passing, whatever. It's not like we're demanding sex scenes or something.

Without it being a plot point, how would you do it?

Even the most important love scene in the movie (Spock and Uhura's) wasn't overt. They snuck into an elevator, so as not to be noticed by their colleagues.

How might they have worked a homosexual subtext, in a way satisfying to you, into the movie that wouldn't cross the line of acceptable military behaviour and without seeming gratuitous?

Tom

This is just an example, but I'm sure JJ could come up with a way:

Sure. You don't think the implication was that Cupcake was attracted to Uhura, and that's why he interrupted Kirk's conversation with her? It's not an absolute given, which is why I put presumably in my initial post, but it's certainly the most likely motivation.

Hmm, I suppose that's a good point, but I didn't pick up that implication; I read it more as "Cupcake's a jackass that likes to fight and thinks townies are lesser than cadets" - him getting pissed at Jim hitting on Uhura was more to do with that sense of superiority and (maybe) watching out for his friend. I wasn't disagreeing that Cupcake almost certainly is hetero, I was just surprised you listed him so confidently.

And as I stated above, there's no reason why one of these characters can't have gay adoptive parents. I certainly don't want them to replace the characters that we already know, but there's plenty we don't know...

True enough re: Demora, but when Kirk says "it wouldn't be the Enterprise without a Sulu at the helm" that speaks more to genetic legacy and resonates as a biological relationship; she's a Sulu because she's a good pilot like her father, "naturally gifted" in a sense. Even that, if you wanted to, could be sci-fi'd to have Demora be the product of gay parents, but seems stretching.

I'd hardly call them bad examples. They are perfect examples of how pervasive heterosexuality is in these films. It was stated above that in a two hour movie there isn't time for such relationships, but that's patently false. We know about McCoy's based off of ten seconds of dialogue that didn't advance the plot but did get a laugh.

Displaying humans (and their genetically compatible extraterrestrial fellows) as the product typically of sexual biological reproduction is an example of pervasive heterosexuality? Sorry, I don't follow, especially as a core of Spock's identity is his divided biological nature.

Something like McCoy's is a good point, easily established as one character asking a male character "how's your husband?" as an aside with no special attention drawn to it.

 

[Thestral]

SNIP

I realized reading your post that mine was a little combative. Good on you for not responding to it that way. Thanks.

No worries, it's a discussion that touches on a lot of deeper waters for many people. For my own part, I'm working on being more open-minded and sensitive regarding an issue I'm frankly a bit uncomfortable with.

 

[IndyJones]

We need more Serbian characters?

Personally I think Poles are more underrepresented. The only one we got was Dr. Pulaski and she wasn't exactly popular. Canadians are pretty underrepresented too.

Sure...but Eddington was a Hell of a character!

 

[Captain Fine]

We need more Serbian characters?

Personally I think Poles are more underrepresented. The only one we got was Dr. Pulaski and she wasn't exactly popular. Canadians are pretty underrepresented too.

Sure...but Eddington was a Hell of a character!

I assume you mean that jokingly? Cuz I really disliked him lol.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

SNIP

I realized reading your post that mine was a little combative. Good on you for not responding to it that way. Thanks.

No worries, it's a discussion that touches on a lot of deeper waters for many people. For my own part, I'm working on being more open-minded and sensitive regarding an issue I'm frankly a bit uncomfortable with.

Civility and grace, on the internet?!?! You should be ashamed.

 

[Thestral]

Sorry, I'll wander down to the VOY forum and fix that right quick...

Also, in response to your Scotty mention, if we're to assume these are basically the same characters (minus Chekov) then Scotty's pretty hetero, if unfailingly hard-luck at it (when your woman is either killed by Jack the Ripper, stolen by a Greek God, or stolen by Khan, Fate's just playing with you...)

And now abed...

 

[Captain Fine]

Sorry, I'll wander down to the VOY forum and fix that right quick...

Also, in response to your Scotty mention, if we're to assume these are basically the same characters (minus Chekov) then Scotty's pretty hetero, if unfailingly hard-luck at it (when your woman is either killed by Jack the Ripper, stolen by a Greek God, or stolen by Khan, Fate's just playing with you...)

And now abed...

Well JJ could kill off Scotty and replace him with a gay man named Welshy...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Sorry, I'll wander down to the VOY forum and fix that right quick...

Also, in response to your Scotty mention, if we're to assume these are basically the same characters (minus Chekov) then Scotty's pretty hetero, if unfailingly hard-luck at it (when your woman is either killed by Jack the Ripper, stolen by a Greek God, or stolen by Khan, Fate's just playing with you...)

And now abed...

Well JJ could kill off Scotty and replace him with a gay man named Welshy...

I dunno, that sounds more like something from Torchwood...

(Yes, I understand the Futurama reference.)