Novels that would make great movies

[Damian]

The issue is that Marla should never have looked at the clean-shaven, wax-chested, turban-less Khan in his cryopod and thought he was "probably a Sikh". It's like she earned her posting on the Enterprise be collecting enough cereal box tokens.

Khan was an Indian Sikh as imagined by writers with no clue what they were talking about.

Oh, I agree. I'm not sure why the writers made him a Sikh in the first place. And yeah, McGivers too. I mean, if she recognized him as Khan from the get go and knew his 'history', that'd be one thing, but there was no indication she recognized him at that point.

I was just trying to be funny .

 

[Christopher]

Re; the 78 years, that's what I remember. I read it in the TV guide I think it was. I figured it was reliable since they appeared to be quoting the showrunners. It seems the year given in "The Neutral Zone" plus the 78 years given in the publicity info (along with knowing TWOK was 15 years after Space Seed and TMP apparently was 2 1/2 years after the end of the 5 year mission) was enough to allow people to extrapolate when everything else took place.

Yes, it was implicitly accepted by the producers as the approximate interval between the TOS movies and TNG. I'm just saying that it was never actually stated as such in a TNG episode; rather, it was widely publicized in news reports and press releases prior to the show's premiere. The only time it was used onscreen was in Generations, which put the main body of the story 78 years after the launch of the Enterprise-B and Kirk's apparent death.

 

[Damian]

Yes, it was implicitly accepted by the producers as the approximate interval between the TOS movies and TNG. I'm just saying that it was never actually stated as such in a TNG episode; rather, it was widely publicized in news reports and press releases prior to the show's premiere. The only time it was used onscreen was in Generations, which put the main body of the story 78 years after the launch of the Enterprise-B and Kirk's apparent death.

I thought that was interesting in Generations that the same 78 year figure worked out, that the Enterprise B scene was the same number of years after TVH as the Enterprise D scenes were to The Neutral Zone (esp. considering the movies didn't follow a smooth order, TUC was not 2 years after TFF but 7 or 8 years, while TNG moved from year to year).

 

[Damian]

I will say, re: Khan, that the explanation given in The Eugenics Wars does make sense in retrospect. Khan would not feel bound by the customs of his people. Him feeling superior to that does make sense.

 

[Christopher]

I will give "Space Seed" credit for the idea of portraying a genetically superior human as nonwhite, a concept that challenged a lot of prejudices (and an improvement of the original plan to name him Harold Ericsson). But they botched the execution by casting a white Mexican actor and putting him in brownface, and by totally screwing up their portrayal of his supposed ethnicity. I guess there weren't a lot of South Asian actors in Hollywood at the time, though.

 

[Damian]

I will give "Space Seed" credit for the idea of portraying a genetically superior human as nonwhite, a concept that challenged a lot of prejudices (and an improvement of the original plan to name him Harold Ericsson). But they botched the execution by casting a white Mexican actor and putting him in brownface, and by totally screwing up their portrayal of his supposed ethnicity. I guess there weren't a lot of South Asian actors in Hollywood at the time, though.

Yeah, I agree. It didn't make sense in a lot of ways. They cast a white Mexican to play a Sikh, who didn't even really look the part. Not to disparage Ricardo Montalban, of course. He made a phenomenal villain in every possible way.

It's just in STID I thought they should have either picked an actor that matched the ethnicity of either Montalban, or someone with an Indian background to match the character (or, you know, not do Khan period, but whatever). They did neither. That's what I really meant about whitewashing the character.

In a way Greg Cox bailed them out with his book by explaining why he didn't look or act like what we would normally expect someone of his ethnic background (and his explanation made sense in retrospect). Whomever is responsible for Space Seed should send him a thank you note .

 

[Christopher]

It's just in STID I thought they should have either picked an actor that matched the ethnicity of either Montalban, or someone with an Indian background to match the character (or, you know, not do Khan period, but whatever). They did neither. That's what I really meant about whitewashing the character.

Sure, but I just find it odd that people criticize STID for it but not "Space Seed," which was even worse because it employed brownface makeup. I guess maybe they're grading "Space Seed" on a curve because it was a common practice back then, but that doesn't make it blameless.

As for casting, I've often thought Naveen Andrews would've been a good choice for Khan. He had worked with Abrams and Lindelof before, of course.

 

[Greg Cox]

I admit I was bemused when people kept suggesting Hispanic actors for the part, apparently confusing Montalban's background with his character's.

 

[Damian]

Sure, but I just find it odd that people criticize STID for it but not "Space Seed," which was even worse because it employed brownface makeup. I guess maybe they're grading "Space Seed" on a curve because it was a common practice back then, but that doesn't make it blameless.

I admit I was bemused when people kept suggesting Hispanic actors for the part, apparently confusing Montalban's background with his character's.

I think part of it was really that Montalban, even though it was a miscasting, was just perfect for the part in every other way. He didn't match the nationality of the character at all, but he matched the character in every other way that was perfect. So part of it was it was a product of it's time in 1967, but I think much more had to do with the actor they picked.

As I'm sure you've noticed I'm a bit of a stickler for consistency. I would have preferred they had found an actor that played the part to be somewhat consistent with Montalban because that was in fact who played the character initially. I would have accepted an actor from south Asia too, since that was where the character was from (while different from Montalban--I could understand the reasoning, and they probably could find actors from Asia that could act the part as played by Montalban as well). The problem with Cumberbatch is he was neither. He is a great actor and made a great villain in every other way. However he neither appeared or acted like Montalban. That was the miss for me. They took an already established character and picked an actor that reminded me nothing of Montalban, even if he is a great actor in his own right.

 

[Damian]

I guess a better way to put it is Space Seed is where the character was established and the criticism of STID is that they took the whitewashing a step further. I agree, Space Seed is not blameless. Star Trek did push the envelope a lot in the 1960's so I guess people are willing to forgive a few missteps, and attribute that to when it was produced. And it helped that Montalban did such a great job in the role.

But what excuse did they have in STID? They did it one step worse. People would have excused them for changing the actor to one from south Asia since that was the character. And a Hispanic actor would have been acceptable since that would best match the original actor. But they picked a British white guy, that made no sense whatsoever. I think that was the issue. It doesn't excuse Space Seed, but Space Seed doesn't excuse STID either--and personally I think it was a bit worse. I guess the only one truly blameless is Nicholas Meyer since he picked the original actor--and there was no brownfacing there thankfully (and it made sense Khan would be paler in TWOK anyway due to the conditions of Ceti Alpha V).

 

[Christopher]

I guess the only one truly blameless is Nicholas Meyer since he picked the original actor--and there was no brownfacing there thankfully

I wouldn't go that far. After all, "Space Seed"'s dialogue claimed that Khan's group was multiethnic (though we didn't actually see it in the extras casting), but TWOK portrayed them as pure blond Nordic types like a Nazi idea of supermen. Now, given that both Meyer and Harve Bennett are/were Jewish, I'd imagine the intent was to liken the eugenics supermen to the Nazis and condemn their racial uniformity (which was probably Carey Wilber's original intent with Harold Ericssen and the like), but the end result was still casting a whole bunch of white people in parts that should've gone to more diverse actors. Not to mention the continuity error it introduces (along with casting twenty-somethings as people who were stranded as adults 15 years earlier!).

Nazi allegories aside, what I liked about the (theoretical) diversity of Khan's people was that it was the only way a eugenics program could actually work. Anyone who's taken high-school biology should know that genetic diversity is healthy for a species' robustness and adaptability, while a small, limited gene pool is harmful. So all those real-life 19th- and 20th-century eugenics programs in Europe and America could never have worked because they were all motivated by white supremacism and strove toward a single, narrow genetic "ideal." The only such program that could possibly have produced results would be one that embraced human diversity rather than trying to eliminate it. So the diverse Augments suggested (but not shown, beyond Khan) in "Space Seed" were more plausible than the uniform blond ones in TWOK.

 

[JD]

I really think all the movie needed to do to make Benedict Kahn at least a bit easier to take is to at least throw a line in there about how they had changed Kahn's appearance to disguise him, and maybe even through in a flashback with a non-white actor as a pre-disguise Kahn. The Kelvinverse Kahn comic does exactly that, so I'm willing to just take it as part of my head canon and accept Cumberbatch in the movie.

 

[Christopher]

The problem isn't that Khan's appearance can't be explained; anything in a story can be easily enough explained with a little creativity. The problem is that Hollywood has a bad habit of marginalizing Asian (including South Asian) actors and putting white actors in their place. I can live with Cumberbatch's Khan as far as in-universe considerations go, but I still wish they'd cast someone more along the lines of Naveen Andrews because that would've been a more enlightened and appropriate choice in real-world terms. Star Trek should be pushing the envelope on things like this, not falling back into the standard Hollywood patterns.

 

[Damian]

Not to mention the continuity error it introduces (along with casting twenty-somethings as people who were stranded as adults 15 years earlier!)

Something else that the fix-it man, Greg Cox, had to fix, this time in his 3rd Khan book.

One of the reasons I look at him as sort of the continuity repairman

 

[Paris]

I think both Destiny and Vanguard would look great on screen, but for totally different reasons.
Destiny(with the DS9 elements added in) would be the huge multi-series epic i'd love to see on the big screen, and Vanguard is the storyline I've wanted to see as a few seasons of TV. Destiny would be big but short, while Vanguard could unfold over 3-5 seasons

 

[Damian]

I think both Destiny and Vanguard would look great on screen, but for totally different reasons.
Destiny(with the DS9 elements added in) would be the huge multi-series epic i'd love to see on the big screen, and Vanguard is the storyline I've wanted to see as a few seasons of TV. Destiny would be big but short, while Vanguard could unfold over 3-5 seasons

I agree about Vanguard. That had an epic feel about it, and it could actually be done on screen since it includes a lot of original characters, or characters lightly seen on screen. The Seeker novels were good also (I hope we get more Seeker novels in the future, they seemed to have fizzled out).

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I agree about Vanguard. That had an epic feel about it, and it could actually be done on screen since it includes a lot of original characters, or characters lightly seen on screen. The Seeker novels were good also (I hope we get more Seeker novels in the future, they seemed to have fizzled out).

Largely because David Mack and Dayton Ward have been busy with other projects. I’d like to see more Seekers novels, as well, as they seem to capture the spirit of the weekly TOS adventures while showing us what other crews were up to while the Enterprise was having her adventures. Having said that, I’d also like to see other eras explored. The TOS years have been beaten to death.

 

[Damian]

Largely because David Mack and Dayton Ward have been busy with other projects. I’d like to see more Seekers novels, as well, as they seem to capture the spirit of the weekly TOS adventures while showing us what other crews were up to while the Enterprise was having her adventures. Having said that, I’d also like to see other eras explored. The TOS years have been beaten to death.

Me too. There's still plenty to see from the Lost Era for example. More Enterprise-B and C stories would be welcome. I'd love to see Stargazer resurrected too (which was technically during the Lost Era as well). Picard was in command of the Stargazer for years and we barely scratched the surface.

You know, I read the New Earth series not too long ago along with the follow up Challenger Gateways book. I thought that had potential for a series and wouldn't mind seeing someone give that a go (assuming Diane Carey wasn't interested of course--I know it's been years since she was involved with Star Trek)

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^The era I’d like to see explored the most is the post-TMP/pre-TWOK era, as I’d love see an in-universe explanation for the change in Starfleet philosophy that happened between the two films. Christopher is a fan of the era and has written several novels set during it, but I’d like to see other authors take a stab at it.

 

[thribs]

Cold Equations would be good. Just change the age of the Soong Android.