Novels that would make great movies

[Damian]

Not in the US, but there was a Sikh nationalist terrorist group in India in the 1980s. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi put them down violently with a huge death toll, and she was assassinated in retaliation by her own Sikh bodyguards.

Then again, American racists don't bother to make such distinctions -- to them, anyone in a turban is the same. I still remember how, immediately after 9/11, some racists murdered a totally innocent Sikh gas-station owner because they were too stupid to know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims (or between the culpable parties and totally innocent people who happened to share their nominal faith).




For that matter, it was just Marla McGivers's guess that he was "probably a Sikh." He never confirmed it. So she could've just been wrong. Although the Singh surname is consistent with Sikhism (the only part of Kellam DeForest's research notes they actually listened to).

Yeah, I get that. If this were a new character they created that was a traditional Sikh committing terrorist acts, then I could see the concern. But I just didn't buy that argument from the STID team, that they casted Cumberbatch for that reason. They were just trying to make excuses. No reasonable person would have equated casting a Hispanic or Indian in a well established character that happened to be Sikh by birth but otherwise did not practice it with Islamic Terrorism, which is the lame excuse they tried to put forth. They were linking unrelated issues, and I can't believe they even bought what they were trying to sell on that.

Don't forget she speculated he was a Sikh, then painted him as a traditional Sikh also. I think it was clear the intention was that he was a Sikh. Frankly though, I get was Greg Cox is saying. It wasn't a big deal in Space Seed, mentioned and indicated but that was all--it wasn't key to the character except his name. And it wasn't mentioned at all in TWOK. The issue came in for me in STID when they suddenly made him a white British dude--totally inconsistent with anything about the character. People criticized M. Night Shyamalan for his casting whites in the Last Airbender and I was critical of the casting of Cumberbatch as Khan for the same reason (though again, he's a great actor and in any other role it would have been an excellent choice). In the 60's I gave it a bit of a pass because of the time it was made (and they still cast a minority in the role, just one with the wrong background for the character). But in 2012 they should know better.

 

[Timewalker]

I may be off the mark but I don't know of any major Sikh terrorist organizations out there.

Not in the US, but there was a Sikh nationalist terrorist group in India in the 1980s. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi put them down violently with a huge death toll, and she was assassinated in retaliation by her own Sikh bodyguards.

Air India bombing, June 23, 1985.

This was an act of terrorism perpetrated by Sikhs. There were 329 fatalities, 268 of which were Canadians. There were no survivors.

This is still a political issue in Canada.

Then again, American racists don't bother to make such distinctions -- to them, anyone in a turban is the same.

Far too many never bother to learn the difference between Sikhs, Muslims, or - get this - even Hutterites. To some people, anyone who wears a non-hat variety of garment on his/her head is a potential terrorist. They use the terms burqa, niqab, and hijab interchangeably (these are very different garments), and I was flabbergasted the other day when I saw somebody include Hutterites in with them (the Hutterites are similar to the Amish, and Hutterite women wear dark-colored kerchiefs on their heads).

 

[Damian]

This was an act of terrorism perpetrated by Sikhs. There were 329 fatalities, 268 of which were Canadians. There were no survivors.

Ok. It's just these days, fair or not, people generally think if Islamic Terrorism when they think of terrorism. Not to say there aren't or weren't others out there. I was just making the point that it was a lame argument for them to make as to why they suddenly made Khan a white Caucasian. I don't think anyone was buying it. Khan in Star Trek really didn't represent either group so saying they cast a Caucasian guy for that reason just didn't wash for me.

 

[Timewalker]

Ok. It's just these days, fair or not, people generally think if Islamic Terrorism when they think of terrorism. Not to say there aren't or weren't others out there. I was just making the point that it was a lame argument for them to make as to why they suddenly made Khan a white Caucasian. I don't think anyone was buying it. Khan in Star Trek really didn't represent either group so saying they cast a Caucasian guy for that reason just didn't wash for me.

Not a problem. I just offered that as a point of information to explain that yes, there was, and is, Sikh terrorism going on.

As for Benedict Cumberbatch, if they really had to have him in the movie (I don't share the opinion that he's anything special as an actor), they should have just left him as John Harrison. There's no reason that the "genetic supermen" all had to be exotic-looking or attractive, right?

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, I get that. If this were a new character they created that was a traditional Sikh committing terrorist acts, then I could see the concern. But I just didn't buy that argument from the STID team, that they casted Cumberbatch for that reason. They were just trying to make excuses. No reasonable person would have equated casting a Hispanic or Indian in a well established character that happened to be Sikh by birth but otherwise did not practice it with Islamic Terrorism, which is the lame excuse they tried to put forth. They were linking unrelated issues, and I can't believe they even bought what they were trying to sell on that.

The problem with your argument is those three words, "No reasonable person." I think you're overestimating the abundance of reasonable people. White Americans -- and not just the actively racist ones, but the generally less cosmopolitan ones working more from lack of knowledge than from malice -- tend to blur different brown-skinned ethnic groups together. So any portrayal of an "ethnic" character from South or Southwest Asia as a terrorist could've been seen as playing into a stereotype.

People criticized M. Night Shyamalan for his casting whites in the Last Airbender

To be fair, I think that was more a studio mandate than Shyamalan's choice. After all, he's Indian-American himself, so it's not like he'd have a problem with diverse casting. As I understand it, it was a mandate from the studio suits who didn't believe a movie led by actors of color could be profitable. (And I really hope they're now looking at Black Panther's box office returns and kicking themselves.)

Ok. It's just these days, fair or not, people generally think if Islamic Terrorism when they think of terrorism.

Which is bull, because most terrorist acts in the US these days are committed by white, Christian men.

I was just making the point that it was a lame argument for them to make as to why they suddenly made Khan a white Caucasian.

Except TWOK did that first, when they brought back Montalban and didn't put him in brownface like they had in "Space Seed." Montalban, as the son of Spanish immigrants to Mexico, was no less white than Cumberbatch. At most, he was more "Mediterranean."

 

[Damian]

Not a problem. I just offered that as a point of information to explain that yes, there was, and is, Sikh terrorism going on.

As for Benedict Cumberbatch, if they really had to have him in the movie (I don't share the opinion that he's anything special as an actor), they should have just left him as John Harrison. There's no reason that the "genetic supermen" all had to be exotic-looking or attractive, right?

Yeah. I liked Cumberbatch and had no problem with him in the movie. If they wanted the Khan angle they could have easily had him as one of Khan's people instead and tie it in that way. It didn't help that the Abrams team was absolutely insistent he was not going to be Khan before the movie came out. Then they ripped off the end of TWOK with the ridiculous Kirk death scene--only to bring him back with magic blood (ugh, magic blood, talk about crazy--now Khan has magic blood, why didn't he use that to save McGivers before TWOK, ugh, never mind, better not get going on that). And Spock yelling Khan, I couldn't believe it. I was like OMG--they seriously didn't just have Spock yell Khan--please tell me I imagined that. I still think even Abrams thought it was crazy because they quickly cut to the next scene.

And to tell you the truth, I liked a lot of STID otherwise. If Cumberbatch had been John Harrison and not Khan, had they not ripped TWOK final scenes and kill the magic blood (yuk yuk) I wouldn't have had too many complaints. I liked the Section 31 angle (totally in line with that paranoid organization), the Admiral Marcus role, a better role for Scotty and McCoy and so on.

 

[Damian]

The problem with your argument is those three words, "No reasonable person." I think you're overestimating the abundance of reasonable people. White Americans -- and not just the actively racist ones, but the generally less cosmopolitan ones working more from lack of knowledge than from malice -- tend to blur different brown-skinned ethnic groups together. So any portrayal of an "ethnic" character from South or Southwest Asia as a terrorist could've been seen as playing into a stereotype.




To be fair, I think that was more a studio mandate than Shyamalan's choice. After all, he's Indian-American himself, so it's not like he'd have a problem with diverse casting. As I understand it, it was a mandate from the studio suits who didn't believe a movie led by actors of color could be profitable. (And I really hope they're now looking at Black Panther's box office returns and kicking themselves.)





Which is bull, because most terrorist acts in the US these days are committed by white, Christian men.



Except TWOK did that first, when they brought back Montalban and didn't put him in brownface like they had in "Space Seed." Montalban, as the son of Spanish immigrants to Mexico, was no less white than Cumberbatch. At most, he was more "Mediterranean."

I just don't think most people would equate an ethnically correct Khan with current terrorism. First of all, staying true to the character as previously presented he wouldn't have been wearing a turban, which usually leads to the false assumptions about them being Islamist or Muslim. And if they were truly worried about that being an issue, then Cumberbatch should have been John Harrison, they shouldn't have used Khan at all in the first place.

And to be clear, I wasn't equating all Islamists with terrorism, only the false assumption that anyone wearing a turban is an Islamist terrorist. I apologize is that was misunderstood or misstated somehow. I try to be careful with what I saw about other groups (I got into some hot water a few months back for something I commented on unintentionally)

As far as Montalban looking paler in TWOK, it actually made sense to me. The conditions on Ceti Alpha V were brutal. It would make sense that he would appear paler by that point. He certainly looked far older than the 15 years that had passed, again I believe owing to the poor living conditions.

 

[Greg Cox]

It’s Hollywood; the definition of “old” is 30+ for a woman, 70+ for a man.

True story: I recently described a character as "a young man in his early thirties."

Got a note from the copyeditor informing me anyone in their thirties was not young.

Ouch!

 

[Timewalker]

True story: I recently described a character as "a young man in his early thirties."

Got a note from the copyeditor informing me anyone in their thirties was not young.

Ouch!

So how old was the copyeditor - in his 20s?

Since anyone in their early-to-mid-30s is young enough to be my son or daughter, I consider that to be "young."

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

True story: I recently described a character as "a young man in his early thirties."

Got a note from the copyeditor informing me anyone in their thirties was not young.

Ouch!

He is if he’s Vulcan/Romulan/Klingon.

 

[Christopher]

I just don't think most people would equate an ethnically correct Khan with current terrorism.

It doesn't have to be most people, just enough to create a controversy.

As far as Montalban looking paler in TWOK, it actually made sense to me. The conditions on Ceti Alpha V were brutal. It would make sense that he would appear paler by that point. He certainly looked far older than the 15 years that had passed, again I believe owing to the poor living conditions.

I'm sorry, I don't understand why you think that harsh conditions would somehow lighten the skin of a person with naturally dark skin. Look at pictures of the Ethiopian famines from the '80s. Look at photos of Mahatma Gandhi when he lived as an ascetic and went on hunger strikes and long endurance marches, or of Nelson Mandela in prison. Hardship does not make nonwhite people any whiter.

In any case, the point is that it is incorrect to say that Cumberbatch was the first white actor to play Khan. No matter what excuse you make in your mind, the makers of TWOK in 1982 chose to present Khan as white -- and, indeed, to portray his entire group as white and pale-haired. I don't disagree that it's a bad idea, but it is hardly new to STID.

 

[Valenti]

Yea they were kinda arian in TWOK. Like a race of neo-Nazi biker doods.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

As for Benedict Cumberbatch, if they really had to have him in the movie (I don't share the opinion that he's anything special as an actor), they should have just left him as John Harrison. There's no reason that the "genetic supermen" all had to be exotic-looking or attractive, right?

Wait... Are you saying that Benedict Cumberbatch isn't attractive? Because I'm sure we both know legions of fangirls who would disagree with you on that.

As far as Montalban looking paler in TWOK, it actually made sense to me. The conditions on Ceti Alpha V were brutal. It would make sense that he would appear paler by that point.

Agreed. And I doubt anybody in his party was venturing outside any more than was absolutely necessary.

He certainly looked far older than the 15 years that had passed,

...But it had actually been 15 years in real life, and Montalban looked pretty damn great for a man in his early 60s. His hair was grey and his neck was a bit wrinkled, but that's about it. I hope I look that good when I'm that age. (Hell, I'm 45, and 1982 Montalban looked better than I do now.)

 

[Timewalker]

Wait... Are you saying that Benedict Cumberbatch isn't attractive? Because I'm sure we both know legions of fangirls who would disagree with you on that.

Well, they are entitled to their disagreements. To each their own, etc. Cumberbatch doesn't do a thing for me.

 

[Damian]

It doesn't have to be most people, just enough to create a controversy.




I'm sorry, I don't understand why you think that harsh conditions would somehow lighten the skin of a person with naturally dark skin. Look at pictures of the Ethiopian famines from the '80s. Look at photos of Mahatma Gandhi when he lived as an ascetic and went on hunger strikes and long endurance marches, or of Nelson Mandela in prison. Hardship does not make nonwhite people any whiter.

In any case, the point is that it is incorrect to say that Cumberbatch was the first white actor to play Khan. No matter what excuse you make in your mind, the makers of TWOK in 1982 chose to present Khan as white -- and, indeed, to portray his entire group as white and pale-haired. I don't disagree that it's a bad idea, but it is hardly new to STID.

I'm not following. Why couldn't harsh conditions have that kind of effect. We've already heard the cases of people's hair turning white after a severe traumatic event. Why couldn't someone get paler when basically they're not getting any sunlight for years and living inside basically in squalor. I mean, the conditions presented on Ceti Alpha V are far worse than anything we've ever had on Earth (well, at least since it's beginnings). And they really couldn't present Montalban in brownface in 1982 anyway, let's be honest. It was wrong in 1967 but they're sort of given a pass because it was 1967. But in 1982, no way, I think by then it was accepted as unacceptable.

My biggest problem with Cumberbatch being Khan was much simpler--he looked nothing like Montalban as Khan, did not speak like him, didn't even act like him (Khan crying, OMG, really, I mean, I'm not in the 'big boys don't cry crowd' or anything, but KHAN. He does not cry, he'd whoop some a--). Put the two next to each other and ask someone what do you see that's similar, I don't think they could tell you anything. I got wrapped up in the whitewashing aspect, but the bases for my objection is even simpler. I like consistency and what we got was not consistent at all. They wanted Cumberbatch and they wanted Khan, so they forced him into a role that I believe was wrong for him.

Now my argument has to do with Khan, and Khan alone. Why they made the rest of his band out to be an blonde 80's hairband I'll never know. None of them looked like the rest of his original group--and I think they intended on them being taken as Khan's original crew (so unlike Khan, I guess they lived the easy life because they grew younger). Greg Cox was nice enough to provide an explanation of why everything might have turned out that way in a way that fits what we saw. But yeah, they should have been like Khan and his group, weather beaten and older. So yeah, I can understand the criticism of TWOK from that perspective.

 

[Damian]

And not only did "Rise and Fall of Khan..." have to explain why they looked like an 80's hair band, but how kids that were under 15 basically look like they were in their 20s and 30s.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not following. Why couldn't harsh conditions have that kind of effect.

Because ethnicity is not a suntan. Yes, naturally dark-skinned people who are malnourished and cut off from sunlight would get relatively paler, but that absolutely does NOT mean they would turn white. They'd still be brown, just a lighter brown.

We've already heard the cases of people's hair turning white after a severe traumatic event.

That's either a complete myth or an extremely rare anomaly (that article's writer claims it happened to him, but he gets into some freaky pseudoscience justifications for it at the end, so I'm skeptical). And the only corresponding condition for skin is vitiligo, which leaves pigment-less blotches rather than being all over. Also, a nonwhite person with albinism would not look white, they'd look like a nonwhite person with albinism (see Black Lightning's Marvin "Krondon" Jones, for example). White is not some natural human baseline that everyone else turns into if you remove some differentiating factor.

My biggest problem with Cumberbatch being Khan was much simpler--he looked nothing like Montalban as Khan, did not speak like him, didn't even act like him (Khan crying, OMG, really, I mean, I'm not in the 'big boys don't cry crowd' or anything, but KHAN. He does not cry, he'd whoop some a--).

It's happened before in Trek, with DaiMon Bok, Zefram Cochrane, Christopher Pike, etc. These are just roles played by actors. And actors are cast based on more than surface appearance.

 

[Damian]

Because ethnicity is not a suntan. Yes, naturally dark-skinned people who are malnourished and cut off from sunlight would get relatively paler, but that absolutely does NOT mean they would turn white. They'd still be brown, just a lighter brown.

Honestly, I never gave it a ton of thought until you brought it up. I mean, maybe he really was actually a white guy who got a good tan before he went in suspended animation (which preserved his tan)--so maybe we have it backwards.

It's happened before in Trek, with DaiMon Bok, Zefram Cochrane, Christopher Pike, etc. These are just roles played by actors. And actors are cast based on more than surface appearance

I agree to a point, but I would argue some of those characters aren't as iconic as Montalban was in TWOK. People, even just the general public who remember TWOK know who Khan was. We Trekkies remember the others, but the general public may have never seen Metamorphosis, The Battle or The Cage. Those episodes did not have the gravitas that TWOK had so you could get away with a little bit more (as a Trekkie it bugs me a bit, but I can't say the general fan would even notice those).

I guess a better way for me to put it is there is a large segment that felt like TWOK was the best, or one of the best Star Trek films. If you are going to redo a character from such an iconic film, you'd think you'd want to get someone that resembled and acted similar to the actor that played him. The difference with Khan is it is a role people remember and when you pick someone so different from that, it's going to get noticed and even ridiculed.

 

[Nyotarules]

It showed two old people kissing, enough said.

I bet you stopped kissing at 25

 

[Christopher]

I guess a better way for me to put it is there is a large segment that felt like TWOK was the best, or one of the best Star Trek films. If you are going to redo a character from such an iconic film, you'd think you'd want to get someone that resembled and acted similar to the actor that played him.

Simon Pegg, Zoe Saldana, John Cho, and Anton Yelchin bear/bore hardly any resemblance to the original actors except in ethnicity. Ben Cross looks very little like Mark Lenard and doesn't even have the same accent (though he's a better match than James Frain). These are characters who had been seen in a number of prior movies and were pretty "iconic" in their own rights.

I can agree that Cumberbatch was not the best choice for Khan. But that doesn't mean that there's anything rare or intrinsically wrong about recasting a role with an actor who bears little physical resemblance to their predecessor. Nobody would ever mistake Roger Moore for Sean Connery. Or Dick Sargent for Dick York. Or Val Kilmer for Michael Keaton. Or John Carradine for Bela Lugosi. Actors aren't models. They aren't cast on looks alone.