novel Federation - Why did TNG crew not recognize it?

[Cadet49]

Something that never made sense to me in the novel Federation:

When the Ent-D encounters Kirk's Ent in the event horizon, they are hesitant to save the 23rd cent vessel, at first, because they think it might be on the classified mission in which it was originally destroyed (as we saw in ST3). With the Ent-D computer malfunctioning, they have to rely on memory, and someone (Wesley?) recalls that the Ent was destroyed in 2285.

O.K. - does no one in that crew of 1000+ not remember that by the 2280s, ships like the Enterprise no longer looked like this:
http://startrekcostumes.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/uss_enterprise.jpg

but instead looked like this:
http://screenrant.com/images/compare-ncc-1701-a.jpg

... so the Ent 1701 must NOT be on its final mission, since it's still in the earlier design!

(For crying out loud, Picard's own Stargazer seems to be a product of the 2280s/2290s design, based on its registry # and engine design)

Would no one on the Ent-D have clued in on this? Has always seemed a bit unrealistic to me...

 

[Christopher]

As you said, they were relying on memory. How many people today would know, off the top of their heads, the difference between a US naval battleship design from 1910 and one from 1930? It's not like the people who live in the ST universe are ST fans who are intimately familiar with the adventures of Kirk's ship and crew. To them, Kirk is just one captain out of many who helped build Starfleet history, and the details of 2260s versus 2280s ship design would be historical minutiae lost in a much broader swath of knowledge of galactic history than we TV viewers have with our artificially narrowed focus on a single starship crew.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Did you know that when the TNG crew read the synopsis for "The Naked Time" in "The Naked Now", it was the wrong Enterprise on the diagram? Who's maintaining Memory Alpha in the 2360's??

 

[Silent_Bob]

As you said, they were relying on memory. How many people today would know, off the top of their heads, the difference between a US naval battleship design from 1910 and one from 1930? It's not like the people who live in the ST universe are ST fans who are intimately familiar with the adventures of Kirk's ship and crew. To them, Kirk is just one captain out of many who helped build Starfleet history, and the details of 2260s versus 2280s ship design would be historical minutiae lost in a much broader swath of knowledge of galactic history than we TV viewers have with our artificially narrowed focus on a single starship crew.

That might work as an excuse for the average starship. But for it to work for the crew of the Ent-D we'd not only have to assume that none of the senior staff had any interest in the ships predecessors but also disregard that there's a model of the bloomin' ship facing them every time they have a conference.

 

[Christopher]

^You can have interest in the ship's predecessors without having a detailed knowledge of what they look like. Again, don't make the mistake of assuming that people inside the universe experience it the same way we do watching it on TV. We watch ST episodes or films and see lots of establishing shots of the ships. But in-universe, there aren't actually cameras hovering outside the ships taking pictures of them all the time. People who learn about the missions of historic starships probably read about them in textbooks, or maybe watch log footage of what's taking place on their bridges. Unless they're engineers, or have a particular interest in starship design, they probably wouldn't have as intimate a knowledge as we do of what the ships looked like from the outside.

 

[F. King Daniel]

(*cough*) Star Trek III footage, camera angle changes and all, used as "flight recorder" footage in STIV, external shots of the ship blowing up spliced with Kruge's crew on the bridge, "These Are the Voyages", etc. (*cough*)

They probably sit quietly on the bridge listening to the theme music 5 minutes into every adventure and watch the credits go by on the main screen.

 

[David cgc]

There weren't any exterior shots of the NX-01 in TATV (except for the montage at the very end).

 

[Cadet49]

As you said, they were relying on memory. How many people today would know, off the top of their heads, the difference between a US naval battleship design from 1910 and one from 1930? It's not like the people who live in the ST universe are ST fans who are intimately familiar with the adventures of Kirk's ship and crew. To them, Kirk is just one captain out of many who helped build Starfleet history, and the details of 2260s versus 2280s ship design would be historical minutiae lost in a much broader swath of knowledge of galactic history than we TV viewers have with our artificially narrowed focus on a single starship crew.

While it's true that an average person might not recognize the difference between a naval vessel of 1910 or 1930, but a naval officer might - if you are serving on a vessel with over a thousand crew members, like an aircraft carrier, someone aboard is bound to be a naval history buff, or recognize ship designs.

Because the majority of the crew of the Ent-D are Starfleet officers, part of a "space navy", and officers aboard the Starship Enterprise, I would expect at least one person aboard would have a familiarity with the ship's lineage. I couldn't understand in the novel why Picard only seemed to consult the senior staff on his ship...

Wouldn't Geordi LaForge, being an engineer, have a knowledge of the history of nacelle design? This:

As opposed to this:

To me, it would have made more sense if the authors had placed the 23rd century portions of the novel aboard the refitted Enterprise, during its second five year mission, post Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Then, it would have been in the same configuration it was in in Star Trek III, and their confusion about whether this was the vessel's last mission would be more realistic, in my opinion.

 

[Christopher]

Okay, I just reviewed the relevant portion of the novel. It was indicated that the ships were in conditions that created considerable sensor distortion. They knew it was the Enterprise, probably from its ID transponder signal, but they couldn't get a clear enough look at it to make out the details of its configuration, and they couldn't narrow down its point of origin beyond a range of eighty to a hundred years in the past.

And nobody on the bridge at the time had a precise memory of how or when NCC-1701 was destroyed. Picard specifically complains that they've become too dependent on the computer and Mr. Data for their historical needs, and he gives an order to try to track down someone in the crew who knows the answer.

 

[Cadet49]

Okay, I just reviewed the relevant portion of the novel. It was indicated that the ships were in conditions that created considerable sensor distortion. They knew it was the Enterprise, probably from its ID transponder signal, but they couldn't get a clear enough look at it to make out the details of its configuration, and they couldn't narrow down its point of origin beyond a range of eighty to a hundred years in the past.

And nobody on the bridge at the time had a precise memory of how or when NCC-1701 was destroyed. Picard specifically complains that they've become too dependent on the computer and Mr. Data for their historical needs, and he gives an order to try to track down someone in the crew who knows the answer.

Yet, on Kirk's ship, the image of the Enterprise-D was so clear that Kirk had to immediately order Uhura to downgrade the quality of the image, so that knowledge of technology from the future wasn't accidentally passed on to Engineers of the past... Picard probably wouldn't have had to follow the same restrictions, since Kirk's ship was from the past - so why would the quality of the image be so much worst aboard the Ent-D, when it is trapped in the same anomaly as the Ent 1701?

 

[Christopher]

Yet, on Kirk's ship, the image of the Enterprise-D was so clear that Kirk had to immediately order Uhura to downgrade the quality of the image, so that knowledge of technology from the future wasn't accidentally passed on to Engineers of the past...

That's not correct. In Part Three, Chapter One, p. 389 of the paperback, Spock says that the quantum compression waves within the singularity "are preventing me from obtaining finer display resolution." When they then detect the future Enterprise at the start of the next chapter (pp. 400-401 ppb), Kirk tells Uhura to cut communications as soon as she receives a hail from the ship. It then says:

At the same time, Spock downgraded the resolution of the main screen. Where the image of a familiar, saucer-and-twin-nacelle-style starship had been taking shape in greater detail the closer it approached, only a handful of blocky pixels remained to indicate the future ship's position.

It was made clear that this was mandated by regulations; even if the image wasn't clear at all, they were still required to downgrade sensor resolution anyway.

You know, you could just reread those chapters yourself to get the answers to your question

 

[Timo]

How many people today would know, off the top of their heads, the difference between a US naval battleship design from 1910 and one from 1930?

The funny thing is (and I guess you knew this when choosing the example), the analogy seems particularly apt for the issue. US battleship design underwent a major visual change between those years, one easily spotted by the layman (and indeed recognized by the layman as the "something" that told US battleships apart from all others) : the highly distinctive cage mainmast was abandoned in favor of the humbler tripod.

The change in nacelle shape should be a similarly blatant telltale for anybody observing Starfleet vessels in the late 23rd century... Something to completely set apart "old" and "new" ships. Observing differences between the various styles that preceded the 2270s, or among the styles that followed the 2270s, would be much more difficult than spotting this major divider.

That said, I found it refreshing that our 24th century heroes weren't all that well versed in 23rd century ship design. However, many of them had an established history of greater than average aptitude in just the thing... Picard for one should have been intimately familiar with the Constitution class and the 2270s nacelle style change, as per "Relics".

The idea that Kirk would observe Starfleet rules on not having a look at the future is pretty absurd, though. Spock might do it, yes, during the first season of TOS. By the time of the second season, he should have learned to know better... And TOS Starfleet having such rules in the first place is almost unthinkable as well, considering they apparently routinely sent starships across time as well as across space. A cool scifi idea, this preemptive measure, but one without a place in the Star Trek universe, or at least the TOS part of it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Silent_Bob]

^You can have interest in the ship's predecessors without having a detailed knowledge of what they look like. Again, don't make the mistake of assuming that people inside the universe experience it the same way we do watching it on TV. We watch ST episodes or films and see lots of establishing shots of the ships. But in-universe, there aren't actually cameras hovering outside the ships taking pictures of them all the time. People who learn about the missions of historic starships probably read about them in textbooks, or maybe watch log footage of what's taking place on their bridges. Unless they're engineers, or have a particular interest in starship design, they probably wouldn't have as intimate a knowledge as we do of what the ships looked like from the outside.

And again that would be fine if there wasn't a model of every variety of the Enterprise stuck to the wall of the conference room. I find it very hard to believe that after years of nipping in there every five minutes to have a chat not one of them actually looked at the big golden ships on the wall.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^I'm sure if the crew really cared, they would have had the NX-01 up there, and would have made sure the nameplates matched the starship models in Nemesis .

 

[Christopher]

And again that would be fine if there wasn't a model of every variety of the Enterprise stuck to the wall of the conference room. I find it very hard to believe that after years of nipping in there every five minutes to have a chat not one of them actually looked at the big golden ships on the wall.

*sigh* Did you miss the part where I said I read the actual text and it said the sensor resolution was so low that they couldn't actually tell what the ship looked like beyond its vague shape? That pretty much renders this whole point moot, doesn't it?

 

[Cadet49]

You know, you could just reread those chapters yourself to get the answers to your question

I actually don't own the book anymore - I had just been reading a summary of it on Memory Beta, and going from what I could recall of the novel. The great think about this forum is that there are always people who still have access to the resource material, so you can ask them for references. I don't want to have to re-purchase the book just to check my references.

But you are absolutely right - if I still had the book, I could just re-read those chapters myself, and answer my own questions. Thanks!

 

[Cadet49]

Yet, on Kirk's ship, the image of the Enterprise-D was so clear that Kirk had to immediately order Uhura to downgrade the quality of the image, so that knowledge of technology from the future wasn't accidentally passed on to Engineers of the past...

That's not correct. In Part Three, Chapter One, p. 389 of the paperback, Spock says that the quantum compression waves within the singularity "are preventing me from obtaining finer display resolution." When they then detect the future Enterprise at the start of the next chapter (pp. 400-401 ppb), Kirk tells Uhura to cut communications as soon as she receives a hail from the ship. It then says:

At the same time, Spock downgraded the resolution of the main screen. Where the image of a familiar, saucer-and-twin-nacelle-style starship had been taking shape in greater detail the closer it approached, only a handful of blocky pixels remained to indicate the future ship's position.

It was made clear that this was mandated by regulations; even if the image wasn't clear at all, they were still required to downgrade sensor resolution anyway.

You know, you could just reread those chapters yourself to get the answers to your question

That doesn't prove that Picard's ship wasn't able to see Kirk's ship clearly - if the resolution was becoming clearer as Kirk's ship had approached the Enterprise-D, to the point where Spock had to downgrade the resolution, it is logical to assume that the resolution would also become clearer aboard Picard's ship, and because they were from the future, there would be no need for Picard to have his crew downgrade the resolution of his viewscreen, so they could probably have seem the NCC-1701's general shape and circular nacelles, at least.

 

[Christopher]

That doesn't prove that Picard's ship wasn't able to see Kirk's ship clearly - if the resolution was becoming clearer as Kirk's ship had approached the Enterprise-D, to the point where Spock had to downgrade the resolution, it is logical to assume that the resolution would also become clearer aboard Picard's ship...

Okay, you don't seem to have heard what I said. They didn't get to the point that their view of the E-D was clear enough that they had to downgrade the resolution to avoid getting a clear look. They downgraded the resolution because it was required by regulations. Even if the image they were getting was nowhere near clear enough to get a good look, even if it never would've been, they were still obligated to downgrade the resolution because they were under standing orders to do so in that situation as a precautionary measure. So you're making an unsupported assumption here about how much sensor clarity they actually had.

And the text is clear that Picard's crew did not have good enough sensor resolution to determine the specific design of Kirk's ship. They couldn't even tell if there were life forms aboard. There's no question that their sensor resolution was poor, regardless of how good the other ship's sensor resolution may or may not have been. After all, they were in a weird spacetime environment and not even entirely existing in the same time continuum as one another. So it doesn't necessarily follow that the sensor clarity was symmetrical.

 

[Cadet49]

That doesn't prove that Picard's ship wasn't able to see Kirk's ship clearly - if the resolution was becoming clearer as Kirk's ship had approached the Enterprise-D, to the point where Spock had to downgrade the resolution, it is logical to assume that the resolution would also become clearer aboard Picard's ship...

Okay, you don't seem to have heard what I said. They didn't get to the point that their view of the E-D was clear enough that they had to downgrade the resolution to avoid getting a clear look. They downgraded the resolution because it was required by regulations. Even if the image they were getting was nowhere near clear enough to get a good look, even if it never would've been, they were still obligated to downgrade the resolution because they were under standing orders to do so in that situation as a precautionary measure. So you're making an unsupported assumption here about how much sensor clarity they actually had.

And the text is clear that Picard's crew did not have good enough sensor resolution to determine the specific design of Kirk's ship. They couldn't even tell if there were life forms aboard. There's no question that their sensor resolution was poor, regardless of how good the other ship's sensor resolution may or may not have been. After all, they were in a weird spacetime environment and not even entirely existing in the same time continuum as one another. So it doesn't necessarily follow that the sensor clarity was symmetrical.

I did hear what you said ... I just disagreed with it - I don't think it was ever clearly defined how good the resolution was on the Ent-D. You are right though, that the whole weird spacetime enironment thing could explain it, I guess.

 

[Leandar]

As you said, they were relying on memory. How many people today would know, off the top of their heads, the difference between a US naval battleship design from 1910 and one from 1930? It's not like the people who live in the ST universe are ST fans who are intimately familiar with the adventures of Kirk's ship and crew. To them, Kirk is just one captain out of many who helped build Starfleet history, and the details of 2260s versus 2280s ship design would be historical minutiae lost in a much broader swath of knowledge of galactic history than we TV viewers have with our artificially narrowed focus on a single starship crew.

Ok, the only thing here I might call shenanigans on is the thought that Kirk is only one captain of many who helped build Starfleet history. Yes, that is true, but so much material and even indications on various series indicate that Kirk was an exceptionally famous captain. Seems to me that Kirk's exploits, especially aboard the Enterprise in the five year mission, would be fairly known, or at least somewhat studied by future Starfleeters.