Nothing Human...

[2 of 10]

In the epsisode Nothing Human, why was B'Elanna so freaked out about having a Cardissian Hologram help save her life. She was aware, she even made mention that Holograms were just "Photons and Forcefields". They were not real, in Latent Image when Janeway said that they gave the Doc a soul, B'Elanna replyed, we just gave him ethical sub-routeins. So, what what was the problem??

I realize what he represented, however, they were not going to have dinner together, he was going to SAVE her life... Any Thoughts???

 

[Lucy of Nine]

Yeah I agree 2 of 10, I thought she made much ado about nothing... well not nothing, but I thought she slightly overreacted... maybe I'm wrong, but when I watched this ep I thought the same thing...

 

[exodus]

The Doc. said it was due too her own prejudice, which it was.

However, after we learned what type of doctor Krell Mosset was, the question now is: Was Be'Lanna justified?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Doc. said it was due too her own prejudice, which it was.

However, after we learned what type of doctor Krell Mosset was, the question now is: Was Be'Lanna justified?

I can understand her POV. It wasn't because it was a hologram, or even a Cardassian hologram. It was due to the specific person being emulated. Crell Moset was the Dr. Mengele of the Cardassians. His methods were brutal. I can see why some patients might not want to be helped due to his research, since it would lend the appearance of legitimacy to that research and Moset himself.

Put it this way: Would Jewish patients want to be treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis? Would any of us want to receive an organ transplant if the previous donor was murdered in cold blood to provide the organ?

 

[exodus]

The Doc. said it was due too her own prejudice, which it was.

However, after we learned what type of doctor Krell Mosset was, the question now is: Was Be'Lanna justified?

I can understand her POV. It wasn't because it was a hologram, or even a Cardassian hologram. It was due to the specific person being emulated. Crell Moset was the Dr. Mengele of the Cardassians. His methods were brutal. I can see why some patients might not want to be helped due to his research, since it would lend the appearance of legitimacy to that research and Moset himself.

Put it this way: Would Jewish patients want to be treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis? Would any of us want to receive an organ transplant if the previous donor was murdered in cold blood to provide the organ?

All good points.

However, if you were in Tom Paris' shoes could you allow your wife to die regardless of how the medical info was obtained?

That's the problem.

 

[teya]

Put it this way: Would Jewish patients want to be treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis?

I grew up with tattooed family members--it was years before I knew that a tattoo wasn't always numbers.

I would have absolutely no problem being treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis. Frankly, knowing that *something* good came out of it, would give those useless deaths some meaning.

What makes the entire scenario absurd--within the confines of the Voyager story--is that Voyager uses Seven's knowledge from the Borg frequently. Why should that be any different?

 

[exodus]

Put it this way: Would Jewish patients want to be treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis?

I grew up with tattooed family members--it was years before I knew that a tattoo wasn't always numbers.

I would have absolutely no problem being treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis. Frankly, knowing that *something* good came out of it, would give those useless deaths some meaning.

What makes the entire scenario absurd--within the confines of the Voyager story--is that Voyager uses Seven's knowledge from the Borg frequently. Why should that be any different?

Not to sound harsh but the Nazi' were wipping out entire generations of people. There was a good chance you might not have even been born to be greatful or reap the benefits of such medical knowledge.

The difference is we use Seven's knowledge of the Borg to combat them as well. So we're turning their wrongs against them.

 

[teya]

Put it this way: Would Jewish patients want to be treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis?

I grew up with tattooed family members--it was years before I knew that a tattoo wasn't always numbers.

I would have absolutely no problem being treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis. Frankly, knowing that *something* good came out of it, would give those useless deaths some meaning.

What makes the entire scenario absurd--within the confines of the Voyager story--is that Voyager uses Seven's knowledge from the Borg frequently. Why should that be any different?

Not to sound harsh but the Nazi' were wipping out entire generations of people. There was a good chance you might not have even been born to be greatful or reap the benefits of such medical knowledge.

We use medical knowledge gained under heinous conditions in the past every day--some even provided through experiments on racial minorities in this country during a time when they were regarded as less than human. Native Americans, African Americans... some pretty nasty stuff was done, but what was learned ended up used to benefit everyone.

It *does not* justify the means.

The difference is we use Seven's knowledge of the Borg to combat them as well. So we're turning their wrongs against them.

But Seven's knowledge is also used for other purposes.

 

[kimc]

I would have absolutely no problem being treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis. Frankly, knowing that *something* good came out of it, would give those useless deaths some meaning.

I agree. Nothing justifies the techniques the Nazis used and certainly no Nazi doctor deserves credit or recognition for any findings. However, if I were one of those victims it would be nice to know that my suffering would eventually end up helping someone.

 

[JanineSal]

The Doc. said it was due too her own prejudice, which it was.

However, after we learned what type of doctor Krell Mosset was, the question now is: Was Be'Lanna justified?

I can understand her POV. It wasn't because it was a hologram, or even a Cardassian hologram. It was due to the specific person being emulated. Crell Moset was the Dr. Mengele of the Cardassians. His methods were brutal. I can see why some patients might not want to be helped due to his research, since it would lend the appearance of legitimacy to that research and Moset himself.

Put it this way: Would Jewish patients want to be treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis? Would any of us want to receive an organ transplant if the previous donor was murdered in cold blood to provide the organ?

All good points.

However, if you were in Tom Paris' shoes could you allow your wife to die regardless of how the medical info was obtained?

That's the problem.

Tom made it plain that he didn't care, as long as B'Elanna's life was saved.

I had wrote this article about "Nothing Human". My gist with the episode had more to do with the bigoted and hypocritical responses of the characters, than the moral implications of using the Crell Moset hologram:

http://ladylavinia.livejournal.com/62151.html

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

This basically boils down to morality. Would we, as a society, be wrong for using medical techniques discovered and perfected by Nazi doctors that came about at the expense and suffering of those they experimented on? It's the same moral question the doctor faced. I'm not trying to start a moral debate on the finer points of the subject, just point out that it exists. This episode and so many like it are some of the reasons why I watch Star Trek. It makes you question who you are and what you would do in a similar situation. This episode equals good writing.

 

[Tachyon]

Great writing, which still stirs conversation.

Maybe B'Elanna did overreact, but when an issue becomes as a matter of principle, many of us may easily become very bull-headed.

 

[Anika Hanson]

I never understood this either. If B'elanna were Bajoran and had lived on Bajor during the occupation or even had lived in the de-militerized zone then I could understand. But B'elanna only fought against the Cardies during her time in the Marquee and I dont even consider it to be her fight really. I think she only joined because she felt like a miss-fit.

 

[black_dranzer]

I would have absolutely no problem being treated with medicines or surgical techniques invented by the Nazis. Frankly, knowing that *something* good came out of it, would give those useless deaths some meaning.

I agree. Nothing justifies the techniques the Nazis used and certainly no Nazi doctor deserves credit or recognition for any findings. However, if I were one of those victims it would be nice to know that my suffering would eventually end up helping someone.

Agreed. I see it as....the means DON'T justify the ends, but to refuse to use those ends to do good means that all those people died for absolutely nothing at all. But eh, that's just my view on it, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Except on Voyager, where Janeway can apparently overrule anyone

 

[kimc]

Except on Voyager, where Janeway can apparently overrule anyone

It's good to be captain.

 

[Holodeck Addict]

I never understood this either. If B'elanna were Bajoran and had lived on Bajor during the occupation or even had lived in the de-militerized zone then I could understand. But B'elanna only fought against the Cardies during her time in the Marquee and I dont even consider it to be her fight really. I think she only joined because she felt like a miss-fit.

I agree with this and feel the same way. My only problem with this episode is the thing attached to her neck looked really stupid and fake. Other than that good episode.

 

[Ktrek]

If everyone would indulge me here I would like to make a more "contemporary" application here.

Many people have the opinion and belief that life begins at conception. Therefore to kill the unborn child, in their minds, constitutes murder of a defenseless human being. However, from the fetus tissue stem cell research has the potential to maybe save lives.

If someone who held such a belief about abortion found themselves in a life or death situation that required them to allow a treatment that used stem cells would it be morally wrong for that person to do so? The killing of an unborn child was required to save their own life. It's an interesting dilemma and one I thought about when I saw this episode.

Kevin

 

[The Grim Ghost]

This whole argument is like saying we should never explore or use nuclear power because the atomic bomb killed a lot of people.

 

[kimc]

If someone who held such a belief about abortion found themselves in a life or death situation that required them to allow a treatment that used stem cells would it be morally wrong for that person to do so? The killing of an unborn child was required to save their own life. It's an interesting dilemma and one I thought about when I saw this episode.

Kevin

Good question. Personally I believe that if you think abortion is killing then it remains killing even if it's to save your own life.

Now what gets dicey is could you make the decision to save another life at the cost of an unborn fetus? Either way you're deciding who lives and who dies - not a position I would ever wish to find myself in.

Unluckily for Janeway that's the choice she had to make. Does she respect B'Elanna's decision and allow her to die or does she make the call that will save B'Elanna's life and perhaps the lives of the rest of the crew when you factor in her value as chief engineer.

I think she made the right call but that doesn't mean it was an easy one. In my mind that's why Janeway's anger at the end of the episode towards B'Elanna's behavior is understandable. Wouldn't anyone be peeved if they had to make the tough call that saved a life then have that person resent you for it? In a way, Janeway made it easy for B'Elanna since she didn't have to choose between her morals or her life. That decision was taken out of her hands and she got to live.

Anyway, just a few meandering thoughts...

 

[spoonunseptium]

Hmm. I just think this entire thread is an example of the kind of contemplation that the writers were trying to produce. This is good.


If you look even at American or British medicine, you'll find that many of the discoveries and techniques that advanced medicine came about by completely unethical means, such as experimenting on people unawares, or forcing a patient to die because the doctor wanted to see what the natural progression of symptoms would be.

Take it to a more general issue and you'll find that most of history involves advancement of one thing or another through innocent victims. Where'd America get all that farmland, hm?

I think we're all a little bit guilty of benefitting from someone else's suffering.