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Not rescuing Nero: thumbs up or down?

Franklin

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To me, one real plot hole in the movie was when Kirk and Spock acted completely out of character in finishing off a helpless Nero. It bothered the hell out of me. Kirk didn't seem all that serious about rescuing Nero. And Spock's response was almost flippant. No debate.
-- OK, Nero destroyed Spock's planet of six billion people. So, does that mean Spock is entitled to go "thumbs up or thumbs down" on Nero's life? No rescue attempt. Instead, let him die. In fact, kill him. Spock is exacting his own kind of revenge on Nero. But is that in character? Even for the Spock in this movie? Revenge is not logical. Killing Nero does not bring Vulcan back. Spock, any Spock, knows that.
-- Even Kirk knows that. Instead it's Kirk as executioner. What will he say in his log? That they decided not to try to save Nero and his crew? Instead, they actually opened fire on his ship as it fell into the black hole? Kirk was a warrior, and he killed, but he had no bloodlust. He didn't kill if he didn't have to. He never destroyed a helpless enemy. Apparently, like the Klingons, this young Kirk doesn't take prisoners.

Think of it this way, would this cavalier killing had been accepted as in-character in a TOS episode? I don't think so.

If Kirk and Spock had acted in character, they would've decided they had to try to save Nero and his crew. Naturally, it endangers the Enterprise. (It's a better reason for it getting caught by black hole than the one in the movie.)

Of course, to keep up the action, Nero could've fought the attempt, and Kirk finally has to decide to get the Enterprise out of there before it's destroyed, too. In other words, little in the story had to change. Scotty still has to save the Enterprise as the Narada is swallowed by the black hole.

When it was over, maybe McCoy could've asked why Kirk endangered his ship and crew to save Nero. There could've followed a short discussion among McCoy, Kirk, and Spock aboout the senselessness of seeking revenge and the need to show mercy. "I will not kill, today," something like that. Very much in line with the sensibilities that made TOS stand out. Instead, the opposite occurred. Kirk and Spock exacted Old West justice with no questions asked.
 
To me, one real plot hole in the movie was when Kirk and Spock acted completely out of character in finishing off a helpless Nero. It bothered the hell out of me. Kirk didn't seem all that serious about rescuing Nero. And Spock's response was almost flippant. No debate.
-- OK, Nero destroyed Spock's planet of six billion people. So, does that mean Spock is entitled to go "thumbs up or thumbs down" on Nero's life? No rescue attempt. Instead, let him die. In fact, kill him. Spock is exacting his own kind of revenge on Nero. But is that in character? Even for the Spock in this movie? Revenge is not logical. Killing Nero does not bring Vulcan back. Spock, any Spock, knows that.
-- Even Kirk knows that. Instead it's Kirk as executioner. What will he say in his log? That they decided not to try to save Nero and his crew? Instead, they actually opened fire on his ship as it fell into the black hole? Kirk was a warrior, and he killed, but he had no bloodlust. He didn't kill if he didn't have to. He never destroyed a helpless enemy. Apparently, like the Klingons, this young Kirk doesn't take prisoners.

Think of it this way, would this cavalier killing had been accepted as in-character in a TOS episode? I don't think so.

If Kirk and Spock had acted in character, they would've decided they had to try to save Nero and his crew. Naturally, it endangers the Enterprise. (It's a better reason for it getting caught by black hole than the one in the movie.)

Of course, to keep up the action, Nero could've fought the attempt, and Kirk finally has to decide to get the Enterprise out of there before it's destroyed, too. In other words, little in the story had to change. Scotty still has to save the Enterprise as the Narada is swallowed by the black hole.

When it was over, maybe McCoy could've asked why Kirk endangered his ship and crew to save Nero. There could've followed a short discussion among McCoy, Kirk, and Spock aboout the senselessness of seeking revenge and the need to show mercy. "I will not kill, today," something like that. Very much in line with the sensibilities that made TOS stand out. Instead, the opposite occurred. Kirk and Spock exacted Old West justice with no questions asked.

I would've done EXACTLY what Kirk and Spock did.
 
Since this was a movie and not real life, and because I could care-a-less about IDIC and mushy Roddenberry mumbo-jumbo..I am glad the scene played out as it did...and so was the audience I was with because they cheered...and that is what is most important...

Star Trek plots with BALLS are the best (Khan--FC) Star Trek movie with pussy-ass stuff suck. And I'll let you decide which ones those are since there are a whole bunch of them

Rob
 
Star Trek plots with BALLS are the best (Khan--FC)...

Kirk offered Khan the opportunity to surrender in TWOK, of course.

He even tried - sincerely - to reason with the guy who'd killed his son in TSFS.

That said, if Young Kirk is an ethically facile hothead that's fine with me, I buy it, it's within the scope of character growth. Young Spock behaving as he did, though, makes him a pussy. Can't stand the heat...
 
Since this was a movie and not real life, and because I could care-a-less about IDIC and mushy Roddenberry mumbo-jumbo..I am glad the scene played out as it did...and so was the audience I was with because they cheered...and that is what is most important...

Rob

So, Kirk should've killed the Gorn? He should've blasted the Reliant and Khan to bits when he had the chance? He should've destroyed the Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror"?
Yes, it's not real life. We all need to take a deep breath and remember that. But I'd respectfully say that it's not mumbo-jumbo either. It was part of what gave Trek some depth. It's part of what made Kirk and Spock something other than two-dimensional action-characters.

OK, it's what the crowd in the theater apparently wanted. Even better. That's the point. It was wrong. And it would've made people think a bit for wanting that.
 
Think of it this way, would this cavalier killing had been accepted as in-character in a TOS episode? I don't think so.

This is not TOS. You can't say their actions are out of character using TOS as comparison. These are new characters, and we'll have to learn all about them from the ground up.
 
Nero kills 6 billion people by destroying Vulcan. Kills Spock's mom. Killed Kirk's dad. Orphans Kirk. Tried to destroy Earth. Was responsible for the death of more than a few Star Fleet officers along the way.

At this point:

Kirk offers Nero assistance. Nero spits back in his face he would rather die a thousand agonizing deaths than accept help. Kirk obliges.

I'm good with that.
 
Star Trek plots with BALLS are the best (Khan--FC)...

Kirk offered Khan the opportunity to surrender in TWOK, of course.

He even tried - sincerely - to reason with the guy who'd killed his son in TSFS.

That said, if Young Kirk is an ethically facile hothead that's fine with me, I buy it, it's within the scope of character growth. Young Spock behaving as he did, though, makes him a pussy. Can't stand the heat...

I agree completely with what you said about Spock in the link in your other post above.

For Kirk, yes, it is an ethical question. I'd have had no problem if he had simply offered to rescue Nero (even if it's a half-assed offer), Nero tells him to, "Fuck off," and so Kirk says, "Fine. Mr. Sulu, get us out of here." And off they go.

Instead, he decided to stick around and fire on a ship that was already being destroyed by a black hole. What? Kill Nero before the black hole does?
 
Considering everything Nero did, all the people he killed, I thought Kirk offering Nero a chance to live was quite generous. I think that was one of the great things about Kirk in all previous incarnations of Trek. We gave Khan and Kruge the chance to live, but they refused, so Kirk let them die. Here, a Nero not put in prison was still a dangerous Nero. That left one alternative; kill him.

BTW, to the original poster, I wouldn't consider it a plot hole. It's a character decision, and even if it's out-of-character, I don't think it's considered a plot hole. I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it.
 
Young Spock had not yet attained kolinahr. The kolinahr is said to purge all remaining emotions. I would argue that young Spock still harbored a lot of anger towards Nero and this is why he basically didn't want Kirk to save him. Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
...
BTW, to the original poster, I wouldn't consider it a plot hole. It's a character decision, and even if it's out-of-character, I don't think it's considered a plot hole. I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it.

Agreed. :techman:
 
Think someone missed the bit when he was offered the chance to survive and Nero said No. Spock has the right to be pissed he's half human and Kirk hates Nero almost as much.

I would of let him die they were right too. Heres a nother question that Black Hole near the edge of our Sol System, does it burn itself out since its man made or is that a big hazard for a while :lol: though I guess the tech might exsist to close it.
 
I have a laundry list of problems with this movie but this isn't one of them. Kirk offered to help... certainly more than I would have done.
 
Young Spock had not yet attained kolinahr. The kolinahr is said to purge all remaining emotions.

That's an excuse.

Basically, Spock's a lippy kid who talks a good game about rationality and the virtues of dispassion, but that's evidently to please his dad and to lord it over the humans. Put some pressure on him and he's not as good as his word.

It doesn't destroy the character, but it undercuts him as someone to be taken seriously. Kirk, OTOH, is what he claims to be.
 
I don't have problem with Kirk firing on the Narada after Nero tells him to fuck off. He may even pass it as a tactical decision: the Narada may be doomed, but its weapons didn't need to be disabled, so it may pose a threat to the Enterprise. We've seen previously that just one salvo from the Romulan starship was almost enough to blast them out of the sky.
What I have problem with is Kirk sticking around the black hole to get his rocks off shooting on Nero, putting the Enterprise in danger from the gravitational pull. That was stupid.
 
It's an alternative universe. The characters are different. If you like Star Trek then this is what you have to accept.
 
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