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Nonsensical courses of action…

Warped9

Admiral
Admiral
I was watching a reaction to “The City On The Edge Of Forever” when I was struck by something I had never really thought about before even through all these years of repeated viewings.

After Spock knocks McCoy out with his nerve pinch Kirk considers the possibility of taking McCoy through the Guardian time portal to somehow prevent McCoy from accidentally injecting himself with cordrazine.

Uh, why?

Later after McCoy appears on Earth he loses consciousness and then later convalesces in one of Edith Keeler’s rooms. He gets over his cordrazine overdose with sufficient rest and maybe some coffee and something to eat wherein he recovers to his normal self.

So all Kirk and the landing party really had to do was get McCoy back to the ship and basically let him sleep it off. Trying to go through the Guardian to somehow stop the accident from happening would have been a wholly unnecessary and needlessly risky thing to do.

They never had to prevent the accidental overdose from happening because recovering from it is apparently just a matter of sleeping it off. And I’m sure the Enterprise’s medical staff could have informed Kirk of that.


Thoughts?

Any other examples of needless decisions or courses of action?
 
Yeah at that point Kirk and Co didn't know if it was something thought would wear off with a couple days of bedrest.
As Kirk said to Spock: "The medical department knows as little as we do. In dosages approaching this, there's some record of wild paranoia."

Kor
 
Also, "City" is ambiguous on just how much time passes, but it's implied that Kirk and Spock are there for at least a couple of weeks, enough time for Kirk and Edith's romance to bloom and deepen. So McCoy could've been delirious or unconscious for days before he recovered. And we don't know how long he was wandering the streets before he found Edith's mission.
 
Trying to go through the Guardian to somehow stop the accident from happening would have been a wholly unnecessary and needlessly risky thing to do.
Granting that paradoxes can be invoked in the first place, something only bad sci-fi writers do (or fantasy writers not constrained by logic), I agree. Tampering of that kind could easily lead to a far worse situation.

I realize I am probably in the minority, as many Trek fans have awarded TCOTEOF "Best Trek episode ever." For me none of the emotional cliff-hangers work at all because they do not make sense, and cannot be made to make sense. Assume a multiverse approach, about the only way to make the story viable. In that case, the Enterprise would not have "disappeared," nor would Edith Keeler's death be so dramatic, as she'd be alive somewhen. To create any sort of conflict, Kirk would have to abandon his command responsibilities, and his whole universe, which I would see as grossly out of character.

(James P. Hogan's The Proteus Operation is an example of a very well written "time war" scenario that does not invoke any paradoxes, yet maintains a tension about the course of history. The story also throws in some curve balls that I have not seen in other time travel stories. So it can be done. Unfortunately, "City" is a miss.)
 
Granting that paradoxes can be invoked in the first place, something only bad sci-fi writers do (or fantasy writers not constrained by logic), I agree. Tampering of that kind could easily lead to a far worse situation.

I realize I am probably in the minority, as many Trek fans have awarded TCOTEOF "Best Trek episode ever." For me none of the emotional cliff-hangers work at all because they do not make sense, and cannot be made to make sense. Assume a multiverse approach, about the only way to make the story viable. In that case, the Enterprise would not have "disappeared," nor would Edith Keeler's death be so dramatic, as she'd be alive somewhen. To create any sort of conflict, Kirk would have to abandon his command responsibilities, and his whole universe, which I would see as grossly out of character.

(James P. Hogan's The Proteus Operation is an example of a very well written "time war" scenario that does not invoke any paradoxes, yet maintains a tension about the course of history. The story also throws in some curve balls that I have not seen in other time travel stories. So it can be done. Unfortunately, "City" is a miss.)
I've always considered City as just okay. I actually got to a point where I wished they would stop doing time travel stories in Trek, although I know it's not likely since time travel is a staple of Star Trek. They always seem to rely on some paradox which I really don't enjoy.
 
Granting that paradoxes can be invoked in the first place, something only bad sci-fi writers do (or fantasy writers not constrained by logic), I agree. Tampering of that kind could easily lead to a far worse situation.

I realize I am probably in the minority, as many Trek fans have awarded TCOTEOF "Best Trek episode ever." For me none of the emotional cliff-hangers work at all because they do not make sense, and cannot be made to make sense. Assume a multiverse approach, about the only way to make the story viable. In that case, the Enterprise would not have "disappeared," nor would Edith Keeler's death be so dramatic, as she'd be alive somewhen. To create any sort of conflict, Kirk would have to abandon his command responsibilities, and his whole universe, which I would see as grossly out of character.

(James P. Hogan's The Proteus Operation is an example of a very well written "time war" scenario that does not invoke any paradoxes, yet maintains a tension about the course of history. The story also throws in some curve balls that I have not seen in other time travel stories. So it can be done. Unfortunately, "City" is a miss.)
Average viewers would get confused and lose interest if the characters were to actually sit down and work out many worlds issues when considering their actions. The stories are framed as if they are saving reality but they are in fact just selfishly trying to jump back into their own timeline.
 
1960's television time travel wasn't particularly well thought out. They just did what they could to make the conflict work within the confines of the adventure. "Tomorrow is Yesterday" is nonsense when they go back to reverse the damage and then return home. I almost prefer Irwin Allen's fantasy approach to time travel. Honestly, "Assignment Earth" and "All Our Yesterdays" make more sense in their approach since in the former, they go back to research and wind up making sure something important happens, even of the details on how it happened didn't matter in the end. And the latter wasn't about changing or protecting history, it was just a trip into the history of an alien planet. Spock reverting to his ancestors may not hold up to much scrutiny, but it worked better than an episode at that stage of the series should have.

As for nonsensical actions, one of my favorites was pointed out by Nimoy himself re: "Spectre of the Gun." Spock only makes the landing party believe the bullets are unreal rather than the entire scenario. Instead of just making it go away, he leaves it so they all stand around so Kirk has a fight. And the fight is only there for a Kirk Fu Climax where he doesn't kill in revenge. They all could have just stood there and let the whole thing fade away.
 
And the latter wasn't about changing or protecting history, it was just a trip into the history of an alien planet. Spock reverting to his ancestors may not hold up to much scrutiny, but it worked better than an episode at that stage of the series should have.

Given how telepathic his race was, and his ability to hear the deaths of 400 on the Intrepid, I never had a problem with it.

As for nonsensical actions, one of my favorites was pointed out by Nimoy himself re: "Spectre of the Gun." Spock only makes the landing party believe the bullets are unreal rather than the entire scenario. Instead of just making it go away, he leaves it so they all stand around so Kirk has a fight. And the fight is only there for a Kirk Fu Climax where he doesn't kill in revenge. They all could have just stood there and let the whole thing fade away.

Maybe. The problem is, Spock can't see through the illusion. He only deduces the illusory nature. I don't know that he could have convinced Kirk and Co. that "nothing here is real". The bullets, as a single variable, would be easier to address.
 
Spock only makes the landing party believe the bullets are unreal rather than the entire scenario. Instead of just making it go away, he leaves it so they all stand around so Kirk has a fight.

Maybe. The problem is, Spock can't see through the illusion. He only deduces the illusory nature. I don't know that he could have convinced Kirk and Co. that "nothing here is real". The bullets, as a single variable, would be easier to address.
Spock obviously can't make the illusory setting in "Spectre" vanish, he just erases any doubt that this is anything but an illusion and ergo cannot bodily harm them.

Kirk fighting the non-existent cowboys is silly in light of that, but it's action-adventure.
 
1960's television time travel wasn't particularly well thought out. They just did what they could to make the conflict work within the confines of the adventure.

I've rarely seen any time travel stories that held up to scrutiny, in any decade or medium. Almost all of them have logical absurdities or impossibilities if you look closely enough.


As for nonsensical actions, one of my favorites was pointed out by Nimoy himself re: "Spectre of the Gun." Spock only makes the landing party believe the bullets are unreal rather than the entire scenario. Instead of just making it go away, he leaves it so they all stand around so Kirk has a fight. And the fight is only there for a Kirk Fu Climax where he doesn't kill in revenge. They all could have just stood there and let the whole thing fade away.

I don't think that would've worked, since the Melkot were controlling the scenario and forcing them to undergo it. In modern terms, they were trapped in VR until the controllers of the simulation decided to let them out. Spock couldn't single-handedly remove them from the game; the most he could do was give them plot armor.
 
I was watching a reaction to “The City On The Edge Of Forever” when I was struck by something I had never really thought about before even through all these years of repeated viewings.

After Spock knocks McCoy out with his nerve pinch Kirk considers the possibility of taking McCoy through the Guardian time portal to somehow prevent McCoy from accidentally injecting himself with cordrazine.

Uh, why?

The first act of that episode is actually pretty terrible. I noted the issues with that plan of action, too.

What I said here was:

"Kirk and Spock meet up with the giant, talking doughnut that plays Cinemascope films (which, to be fair, wasn’t too bad an effect). The wheels in Kirk’s brains almost come off at the concept of time travel–apparently, he’s forgotten he’s already traveled back in time twice just in this season. Then he proposes the most harebrained plan: go back in time a day to “stop the accident”. What does he plan to do when he meets himself? This is Starfleet’s finest?"

I wrote the whole segment from the perspective of one "Cordwainer Bird" -- it's one of my prouder moments. :)
 
I dunno, Kirk seems to accept the concept of time travel immediately, like he's already familiar with it, and then asks questions to establish the rules the machine works by, starting with 'can you slow down the images?'. If the answer was yes he may well have asked if he could step into yesterday and take that Kirk's place, effectively giving his past self a vision of an avoidable future. We don't know for sure if the Guardian has that feature but we've been given reason to think it's possible.
 
I dunno, Kirk seems to accept the concept of time travel immediately, like he's already familiar with it, and then asks questions to establish the rules the machine works by, starting with 'can you slow down the images?'. If the answer was yes he may well have asked if he could step into yesterday and take that Kirk's place, effectively giving his past self a vision of an avoidable future. We don't know for sure if the Guardian has that feature but we've been given reason to think it's possible.

That interaction reminds me: the Guardian's first words were "A question. Since before your sun burned hot in space, and before your race was born, I have awaited a question."

So when Kirk says "Let's get the hell out of here," the Guardian should have said "Wait, you're leaving? I was gonna make espresso!"
 
That interaction reminds me: the Guardian's first words were "A question. Since before your sun burned hot in space, and before your race was born, I have awaited a question."

So when Kirk says "Let's get the hell out of here," the Guardian should have said "Wait, you're leaving? I was gonna make espresso!"

My brother likes to say "Since before your sun burned hot in space, and before your race was born, I have awaited... a Pepsi!"
 
Granting that paradoxes can be invoked in the first place, something only bad sci-fi writers do (or fantasy writers not constrained by logic), I agree. Tampering of that kind could easily lead to a far worse situation.

I realize I am probably in the minority, as many Trek fans have awarded TCOTEOF "Best Trek episode ever." For me none of the emotional cliff-hangers work at all because they do not make sense, and cannot be made to make sense. Assume a multiverse approach, about the only way to make the story viable. In that case, the Enterprise would not have "disappeared," nor would Edith Keeler's death be so dramatic, as she'd be alive somewhen. To create any sort of conflict, Kirk would have to abandon his command responsibilities, and his whole universe, which I would see as grossly out of character.

(James P. Hogan's The Proteus Operation is an example of a very well written "time war" scenario that does not invoke any paradoxes, yet maintains a tension about the course of history. The story also throws in some curve balls that I have not seen in other time travel stories. So it can be done. Unfortunately, "City" is a miss.)
Why is the multiverse approach the only way to make the story viable?
I'm happy with the paradox approach.
Neither way has been scientifically proven either way.
There are way worse renditions of time travel in trek and out of trek.
I find the paradox approach more interesting. Otherwise three is no issue with time travel. If every time you time travel you create a new universe then say Nero did everyone a favour by travelling through time and creating an extra universe? Everyone should have been thanking Nero instead of condemning him for being a genocidal lunatic.
My favourite time travel story is I suppose the original H G Wells movie where every time he tried to save his fiance the incident changed so he could never be successful so a paradox would not occur.
 
What are you all talking about, Star Trek never does anything nonsensical. Like turning brainless Spock into a remote-controlled robot puppet instead of having him on a stretcher or something.
 
Why is the multiverse approach the only way to make the story viable?
I'm happy with the paradox approach.
Neither way has been scientifically proven either way.

Not true. A paradox, by definition, is an insoluble contradiction, something that can't physically happen or be logically true, because it's saying two mutually conflicting things at once. (For instance, "This sentence is a lie." If it's a lie, then it's true, and if it's true, then it's a lie. There is no solution. It's simply an invalid premise.) If an equation results in a paradox, if it can't produce a definite, non-contradictory solution, then that rules it out as a valid equation. A paradox is not a solution, it's proof that you've formulated the problem wrong in the first place.

The idea of a moment in time being "erased" or "replaced" by a different version of itself is a contradiction in terms, because erasure or replacement means there's an earlier version and a later version of the same thing -- they exist at two separate points in time, before and after the change. But a single point in time cannot come after itself. The very idea of a single moment being "replaced" is a contradiction and an impossibility. It may look to the time traveler like it happens twice, but that's just because the time traveler looped back over their own worldline and experienced the same single moment twice, like rewinding a video. It's an illusion, not a physical reality. Or at least, it's only real in the time traveler's subjective frame of reference and doesn't outweigh the rest of the universe's frames of reference.

The only way there can be two different versions of the same single moment in time is if they exist simultaneously, by definition. Parallel timelines are the only way you can have more than one history in a way that's physically meaningful and possible. Anything else is just a fanciful conceit of fiction.

There is actually a well-developed scientific understanding of how time travel would work if it were physically achievable. The whole purpose of science is to let you extrapolate beyond direct experience and predict what would happen in new circumstances. Everything in the universe obeys the same fundamental laws, so if you understand how those laws apply in one set of conditions, you can predict how they would have to apply in another. The equations of General Relativity helped us understand how space and time work, how they relate to each other, and how two observers can perceive different measurements of time. So to say "we just don't know either way" is incorrect. We can make informed predictions about the possibilities, the same way we can about alien biospheres or starship drives. We know enough about the universe to know what's possible or impossible in broad strokes, even if we're just making informed conjectures about the details.


I find the paradox approach more interesting. Otherwise three is no issue with time travel. If every time you time travel you create a new universe then say Nero did everyone a favour by travelling through time and creating an extra universe? Everyone should have been thanking Nero instead of condemning him for being a genocidal lunatic.

Yes, exactly. Fiction favors the scientifically nonsensical premise of "rewriting" history because it gives more dramatically and emotionally satisfying results, with higher stakes. So say that. Don't say "science doesn't know the difference." Science knows perfectly well. Just say that stories don't have to be bound by science. A lot of human creation is about representing the impossible and nonsensical, like M.C. Escher's infinite staircases or impossible cubes. Art isn't limited to what's realistically possible. Unless it chooses to be, like hard science fiction or realist painting.

Still, there's the Ancient One's argument from Avengers: Endgame: Even if your actions create a parallel timeline, the inhabitants of that timeline are still living people as much as the inhabitants of your own timeline, so if that timeline's history is altered in a way that causes mass death and destruction (such as Nero destroying Vulcan), then it would be incredibly callous to shrug that off as irrelevant. The stakes still matter even if your own history is unaffected. Plus, of course, the characters in the Kelvin films were the ones living in that altered timeline, so of course its events had life-and-death stakes to them.

Anyway, there can be dramatic merit in stories about time travel creating branching timelines, such as Avengers: Endgame and Loki, or stories about fixed timelines where nothing in the past can be changed, such as the movie 12 Monkeys or the time travel episodes of the Gargoyles animated series. Time-paradox stories are such an overused trope that it can be refreshing to avoid them. I've taken a stab at fixed-timeline time travel plots in a few things I've written, including a couple of my Patreon stories (index here). There are ideas worth exploring there, like how to avoid a seemingly inescapable fate in a fixed timeline, how to cope emotionally with the inability to alter a tragedy, etc. A lot of fiction is about characters trapped by destiny or by circumstances they can't change, going back to ancient narratives like the Oedipus and Achilles myths.


My favourite time travel story is I suppose the original H G Wells movie where every time he tried to save his fiance the incident changed so he could never be successful so a paradox would not occur.

"Original?" That was the fourth and most recent screen adaptation of the 1895 novel (after a live 1949 BBC version that wasn't preserved, the 1960 George Pal movie with Rod Taylor and Yvette Mimieux, and a dreadful 1978 TV movie with John Beck and Priscilla Barnes). And it's the only one that gave the time traveler a fiancee or had him attempt to save her life.

Also, he only tried to save his fiancee once, and then abruptly jumped to the conclusion that every attempt would have to fail. Which is a complete failure of scientific thinking, since you can never assume a pattern based on a single result. I keep hearing people say he repeatedly tried to save her, and I wonder if the version I saw was missing a sequence, or if people just misremember it because the characters acted as if he'd made many attempts even though we only saw one.
 
Bill & Ted's excellent Adventure (1st movie) holds up very well, for just one reason - its one of the very few uses of Time-Travel I have seen wherein the protagonists constantly write themselves notes to remind themselves to go back and do certain things, because even thought they are idiots, they are still way smarter than most scify scientists who don't factor-in the 'Grandfather Paradox' (if you go back and kill your own grandpa, the universe collapses, because you could have never been there to do it in the first place). In B&T, they KNOW they won't know to do something (because they already fixed it), and thus, the use of the notes telling them to do it anyway, even though the reasons are no longer apparent.

Doctor Who has done this (I know it happens a few times in the new series), where he has to leave himself clues (and even an entire book) to tell him or someone else what to do in another time period. But in that show, its hit-or-miss, and tends to be used for comedy, mostly (it was used to excellent effect in the Weeping Angels introduction episode). So while its used there, in a show ALL about time travel, its used rarely, which is a shame (although they do address this by saying his timeline has many 'scars' from all the paradoxes he has created). So if the Doctor lives in a multiverse - which he does - he created most of that multiverse himself.

As for the episode in question, two things: first, there is a novel series about 'Q' that starts with him looking at stuff through the portal, which is neat, because its also established the city/civilization around it was not built by the portal-makers, it was built by the 'Q' when they were mortal. They liked it so much they built their entire civilization around the thing. Its also a pretty cool take on some old lore, connecting stuff from four episodes and one movie together to make a lot more sense (I didn't read it, I just came across the beta-canon doing research). Secondly, even as a kid, I imagined that that 'alternate timeline' was the one that created the Mirror Universe. That because the Nazis won, the Earth - when it became unified - was more belligerent and militaristic, and created the Terran Empire. Just some head-canon from back in the 60's is all.
 
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