Nimoy: TMP Wasn?t Really A Trek Movie

[Anwar]

I LIKED TMP, still do.

And I thought it gave character development that proved important for the cast, Spock finally started getting over his "Human vs Vulcan" stuff by realizing he should just appreciate both and not think one was better than the other, Kirk had a compelling arc in the story, etc.

 

[Warped9]

Then and now I think part of what bothers some fans is that TMP isn't familiar enough, at least in the beginning. The characters are scattered and they're not their familiar selves when they get together and they're not in sync with each. In that respect it could annoy some fans even though it's a more credible approach to showing them being reunited and getting back into their groove. By the end of the film everyone is back in place, but I think a lot of people would rather had had that from the beginning.

This is part of what has always bothered me about TWOK. The ending of TMP has set the stage for new voyages with everyone back together with a beautiful refit Enterprise and...they tear it all down and gaudily repaint it for TWOK. All that would have needed to be done for the sequel would have been to introduce the Khan element of the story and spice up the uniforms a bit while not going to the ridiculous Buckingham Palace extreme.

TMP is also often cited as sterile looking despite actually having quite a bit of colour in it. Again I think fans wanted a fully fitted out ship (like would be seen later) even though story wise the refit ship was brand new and not yet finished when launched early to intercept V'ger.

Some have long called it "the motionless picture" and even more so today because its pacing really contrasts with so many films of today, particular sci-fi and fantasy and superhero and action films which are almost all hyper-paced.

I can't disagree that it could have used more character drama, but it is definitely a Star Trek film in sensibility and in ideas.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Consider this: Any film that we watch, any book that we read, any phone conversation with a friend....those are all just snippets of time strung together. One of the few exceptions would be a moment-by-moment stream-of-consciousness piece.

How much of the criticism directed at TMP comes from conditioning? The 'get on with it, let's go, go, go' way of thinking that's been reinforced.

So TMP had longer sequences inside V'ger. Is that really so bad?

Why not think of it like 'Fantastic Voyage' only they were inside the 'body' of V'ger?

Honestly, too many people seem to be so impatient and so fickle. If something deviates too far from a certain format, they're just not happy.

IDIC, people.

 

[xortex]

To me It's Alan Dean Foster's fault. If he thought it was his story to tell he should have had the balls to stand up to GR and insist that he tell it and not just collect an easy check for what was a Roddenberryeske idea to begin with - give the boss what you think he wants kind of thing. I would never sell something I didn't believe in and he's better than a con job which is what it was - stroking his ego with a mirror image of Nomad - to trick him. Where no mad man has gone before. Better than the studios being tricked into thinking JJ Abrams was JJ Adams from Forbidden Planet. Foster shouldn't have allowed himself to be cut off if he was a true Trekkie, but bills is bills. It was alot of smoke and mirrors that trapped Gene in a pitch right out of his own playbook and Foster knew it too but still took the easy money. That is not artistic integrity, plus not worthy of Foster's creativity. It was 'In Thy Image ' alright - Gene's, which is why he bought it and loved it so much unfortunately.

 

[Warped9]

Also, in '79 people were still hyped about Star Wars, a traditional space adventure with rayguns blasting, narrow escapes, amusing robots, weird aliens and cool starships. It was pure pulp sci-fi brought to the big screen. It was flashy and exciting.

Now Star Trek (TOS) had some of those elements, but it was much more distilled. Star Trek had also generally better writing, acting and strong elements of drama (along with doses of humour and even occasional dollops of horror). Star Wars was played on mostly one note while Star Trek ran the gamut of what you could do in sci-fi. Of course there's also the matter of a one shot film (at the time) as opposed as a series.

Suffice to say that Star Wars could well have changed many expectations about what a Star Trek film should have been like. And I'd argue that it has influenced what many people still expect from bi-budget sci-fi on the big screen. Note that the big favourites for Trek in film are: The Wrath Of Khan, The Undiscovered Country, First Contact and ST09. Although not note-for-note they are all flavoured more like Star Wars, most particularly ST09.

Some of TOS' very best moments have nothing to do with starship battles and phaser fights and the like, whether it be TOS or TNG. But for a lot of fans, and in extent TBTB, thats not good enough for the big screen.

Some of the very best films I've seen do drama really well and it's got little to nothing to do with action. It's about effective drama.

Initially Star Trek was about drama dressed as science fiction, and they're certainly not mutually exclusive. But I think a lot of people have the assumption that serious science fiction is more likely dark and dystopic. Star Trek bucks that trend. It can have dark elements, but generally it's meant to be positive: we can have a future and it can be better than what we have.

TOS had its share of straight-up adventure yet it also had its share of thought provoking drama. Seriously TMP and TWOK are two sides of the same coin, but now (and somewhat then as well) it seems like the audience (and TBTB) are satisfied with only one side of the coin. And even that side is being distilled.

For whatever issues I may have with TWOK the fact is it has some good dramatic moments to it as well as some thought provoking ideas, and all that mixed in with dynamic action. Now flash forward three decades and ST09 is all hyper-action without any genuine drama, nuance or ideas worth pondering.

I appreciate a film that can settle down for a few moments to be reflective and expository, but a lot of modern audiences and the people that green-light today's spectacles don't seem to have much patience for that. I recently enjoyed Men In Black 3 and The Avengers, two films with sufficient doses of action and adventure. And yet I've read criticisms where some felt those films were "slow" in some points. Really? So what? I didn't find anything about those films slow. Indeed I found each were rather we'll balanced in their pacing. I appreciated the "quieter" moments as they played well against the more active parts of the films.

 

[Warped9]

To me It's Alan Dean Foster's fault. If he thought it was his story to tell he should have had the balls to stand up to GR and insist that he tell it and not just collect an easy check for what was a Roddenberryeske idea to begin with - give the boss what you think he wants kind of thing. I would never sell something I didn't believe in and he's better than a con job which is what it was - stroking his ego with a mirror image of Nomad - to trick him. Where no mad man has gone before. Better than the studios being tricked into thinking JJ Abrams was JJ Adams from Forbidden Planet. Foster shouldn't have allowed himself to be cut off if he was a true Trekkie, but bills is bills. It was alot of smoke and mirrors that trapped Gene in a pitch right out of his own playbook and Foster knew it too but still took the easy money. That is not artistic integrity, plus not worthy of Foster's creativity. It was 'In Thy Image ' alright - Gene's, which is why he bought it and loved it so much unfortunately.

The blame for how TMP turned out belongs to more than one person. Frankly shooting a movie where scenes are still being written and extensively rewritten is just begging for trouble. Telling a director that pretty much everything is ready to go for him only for him to find that nothing they have is suitable for a feature film is begging for trouble. Shutting it all down before the director can properly edit the film is begging for trouble. Going ahead with a story that most anyone would immediately recognize as familiar without adding anything to make it more distinct was begging for trouble. Being neck deep into a series development and then switching gears midstream and saddling what you've already spent on the series onto the film's production is begging for trouble. And I'm sure there were other things going on.

Lets face it: Roddenberry was a good story editor, but he had a limited number of story ideas. Paramount was impatient to get the show "in the can" and "on the road," but they kept changing their minds about what they wanted and when they wanted it. Robert Wise was a damned good director yet he was asked to make steak out of burnt toast.

 

[J.T.B.]

Consider this: Any film that we watch, any book that we read, any phone conversation with a friend....those are all just snippets of time strung together. One of the few exceptions would be a moment-by-moment stream-of-consciousness piece.

How much of the criticism directed at TMP comes from conditioning? The 'get on with it, let's go, go, go' way of thinking that's been reinforced.

I have said it before, but I don't think the really heavy criticism of TMP came around till '83 when TMP was shown on the ABC Sunday Night Movie. With the commercial interruptions throwing off the pace and really exaggerating the impression of slowness, the contrast with the freshly-remembered TWOK action was pretty damning. Before that people seemed pretty much OK with TMP, but after it became kind of a whipping boy and that became conventional wisdom.

Justin

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Perhaps it was due to it being a TV show, but TOS could pack a lot into a hour. TMP just felt padded with not enough story to fill an hour, much less two plus.

Yeah, the movie is kind of slow. Having the characters just staring at the view screen a lot didn't help.

 

[Gojira]

Perhaps it was due to it being a TV show, but TOS could pack a lot into a hour. TMP just felt padded with not enough story to fill an hour, much less two plus.

Yeah, the movie is kind of slow. Having the characters just staring at the view screen a lot didn't help.

I like the beginning until Spock arrives, after his arrival and until Ilia gets taken it drags a bit. Then after she comes back and they head toward V'Ger it starts to pick up once more.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Nimoy agreeing to return to play Spock and his intended replacement getting killed in a Transporter accedent.

Actually, Xon was nothing like Sonak. Xon was to be "a Michael York-type with pointed ears". Due to all the preparation actor David Gautreaux had put into the character already, Xon was saved for possible future telemovies and episodes. The actor played Commander Branch, of Epsilon Nine.

In a way, Lt Xon survives as Saavik. One of the failed scripts for ST II featured a male "Dr Savik", who morphed into the female Lt Saavik, when several script fragments were drawn together by Nick Meyer to create the eventual shooting script.

BTW, in directional signage from the set of ST II's Academy scenes, sold off in the It's a Wrap! eBay auctions, Xon is given an office. So... he may still be around!

I believe Data was based on "Questor" from "The Questor Tapes" - another failed TV pilot by Gene Roddenberry.

Yep, but Xon's lines in "Phase II: The Child" and "Phase II: Devil's Due" went to Data when those scripts were reimagined for TNG.

 

[sonak]

Consider this: Any film that we watch, any book that we read, any phone conversation with a friend....those are all just snippets of time strung together. One of the few exceptions would be a moment-by-moment stream-of-consciousness piece.

How much of the criticism directed at TMP comes from conditioning? The 'get on with it, let's go, go, go' way of thinking that's been reinforced.

I have said it before, but I don't think the really heavy criticism of TMP came around till '83 when TMP was shown on the ABC Sunday Night Movie. With the commercial interruptions throwing off the pace and really exaggerating the impression of slowness, the contrast with the freshly-remembered TWOK action was pretty damning. Before that people seemed pretty much OK with TMP, but after it became kind of a whipping boy and that became conventional wisdom.

Justin

that's not how I've heard it. There was tremendous fan disappointment with the movie as soon as it came out. And you don't need commercial breaks to "exaggerate" TMP's slowness, it's already a very slow movie. Which makes sense, as it's a one-hour episode plot padded to two hours.

 

[J.T.B.]

that's not how I've heard it. There was tremendous fan disappointment with the movie as soon as it came out.

All I can say is that was not my experience at the time, and you couldn't tell it by ticket sales figures.

Justin

 

[Warped9]

that's not how I've heard it. There was tremendous fan disappointment with the movie as soon as it came out.

All I can say is that was not my experience at the time, and you couldn't tell it by ticket sales figures.

Justin

Same experience for me. I read about criticisms, but I didn't encounter much of it firsthand.

 

[sonak]

that's not how I've heard it. There was tremendous fan disappointment with the movie as soon as it came out.

All I can say is that was not my experience at the time, and you couldn't tell it by ticket sales figures.

Justin

it was the first new live action Trek in ten years, the ticket sales reflected that.

 

[Warped9]

Today a film like TMP, even the DE version, would have a harder time because of elevated expectations to deliver right now at the box office, and it certainly wouldn't likely run for weeks to months in the theatre.

Different circumstances then.

 

[Greg Cox]

I have said it before, but I don't think the really heavy criticism of TMP came around till '83 when TMP was shown on the ABC Sunday Night Movie. With the commercial interruptions throwing off the pace and really exaggerating the impression of slowness, the contrast with the freshly-remembered TWOK action was pretty damning. Before that people seemed pretty much OK with TMP, but after it became kind of a whipping boy and that became conventional wisdom.

Justin

Although the fact that TPTB chose to basically start over again and take a different approach with WOK suggests that there was already a sense that TMP was something of a disappointment long before TMP ever aired on TV, a year or so after WOK hit the theaters . . .

So it wasn't all post-TV, post-Khan revisionism.

 

[NewHorizon]

I think a huge issue with how TMP was perceived had to do with it not being a finished cut of the film. The film had not received a final edit to smooth out the pacing, the sound mix had not been completed, several of the effects shots were cut due to time. It was a clunky, unfinished cut and that's how it came across.

When I watched the directors edition, I was amazed at how much more alive the film felt with the final sound mix added. The subtle trims made by Robert Wise also really set the proper pacing for the film.

I always liked TMP, but the directors edition made me love it.

 

[Greg Cox]

Oh yeah. I briefly met Robert Wise years and years ago, and I remember him mentioning that a good chunk of his budget had been spent even before he signed on to direct the movie. I'm sure he would have prefered a less demanding deadline.

And Wise was certainly no slouch when it came to genre films. The Day the Earth Stood Still, The Andromeda Strain, The Body Snatcher (with Karloff and Lugosi), Curse of the Cat People. All classics, and some of my favorite films.

(Somewhere I have a copy of Starlog he signed for me. Wonder what ever happened to it.)

 

[T'Bonz]

Ticket sales where good, because we were so eager for new Trek.

But at least in my group of friends, we were disappointed. The verdict was the special effects were cool but the movie was dull and Spock was too damned cold.

that's not how I've heard it. There was tremendous fan disappointment with the movie as soon as it came out.

All I can say is that was not my experience at the time, and you couldn't tell it by ticket sales figures.

Justin

Same experience for me. I read about criticisms, but I didn't encounter much of it firsthand.

 

[cbspock]

I think the DE version TMP corrected a lot of the rough edges. Now if only they would release it on Blu-ray.


-Chris