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Nick Meyer - The Best Trek Director

Meyer's original idea was very much "Spock is dead, the end".

What of it? Meyer's "original idea" is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, considering that every version of ST:TWOK ever released to the public since 1982 has the aforementioned Remember/VO/Torpedo sequences including "The Director's Cut" DVD from 2002 which is Meyer's self-proclaimed final edit of the film.

TGT
 
This isn't a discussion about the films it is a discussion about the directors and you are criticising Nick Meyer as a director because he was forced to put something in the movie that he wasn't happy with. You are criticising a very touching scene because of events which came after, events that Nick Meyer wanted nothing to do with. I agree with you that Spock shouldn't have come back, and the way they brought him back wasn't right, but I'm not going to blame Nick Meyer for it. And I'm not going to let future events ruin what was a very touching scene. :)
 
Meyer's original idea was very much "Spock is dead, the end".

What of it? Meyer's "original idea" is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, considering that every version of ST:TWOK ever released to the public since 1982 has the aforementioned Remember/VO/Torpedo sequences including "The Director's Cut" DVD from 2002 which is Meyer's self-proclaimed final edit of the film.

TGT

In all fairness, even meyer has said that he doesn't like that end, but he didn't change it for the DC because "it's history". His primary mission with the DC appears to be the restoration of the Scotty's Nephew story line and some different takes... he didn't alter the structure of the film in any way.

I think the real problem here is the interfearence by Bennett. He was the one who pushed those changes to the film on meyer, and meyer didn't have the... clout, at the time to fight them.

I think that for what it is, TWOK was a well structured story which was hampered by two limitations, budget and Studio Leadership...

Oddly enough, that's the same thing which hampered TMP, TFF, GEN, INS...

Seems that Trek Films have always run afowl of those two "areas" when all is said and done.
 
In the end though, the issue isn't just Meyer's job as a director, it's also the precedent he set. Let us examine TWOK for a minute:

<snip>

I agree with a lot of your criticisms against TWOK, but from that would have to conclude only good things about Nick Meyer's directorial abilities. He took a script that was full of plot holes and contrivances and made of it an intensely enjoyable movie. It's not about pretty pictures or explosions (if that were all it took, Nemesis would have been a hit). It's about emotional performances, pacing, tension, and a maintaining a tone that compliments the material. It's unfortunate that TWOK established a style for so many future Trek films, but it only managed to do that because it was so well directed.

As to TMP, it's certainly a smarter movie insofar as it has interesting themes and a bit of subtlety. But there's more to being a good movie than having material someone could write an essay on. Kirk's character arc gets off to a good start, but doesn't come to a satisfying conclusion. Decker's isn't particularly engaging, either. It really comes down to Spock's, which is thankfully pretty well done throughout, but a little dry simply because of the story it is. I can't help but think that it'd be better if they had managed to grant him his epiphany via a more visual/dramatic means. The sickbay scene isn't bad, but having the trigger be a wholly-internal mindmeld isn't much different than having it happen off screen: either way, the audience needs to pick up what happened after the fact rather than experience it with the character.

Anyway, we all know the answer to the best-director question. The Shat wins. The Shat *always* wins.
 
I don't agree at all that the shot of the Tube at the end made it obvious that Spock was coming back, the death still felt final but it just makes it end on a less of a downer, christ sake' i cried enough when i was younger with the ending as it is, i would've been in a deep set of depression if the original cut had gone out. If you wan't to accuse any trek film of a major cop-out at the end then go see Nemesis. It's also guilty of botching the death in the first place but that's for another post :lol:
 
For handling the characters, my vote is split between Nimoy and Frakes. Both men knew the characters better than any outsiders and both men gave the cast bits of business which didn't make them look like idiots. Frakes has the edge in directing action, his work in FC and INS is excellent.

My issue is that at around Trek 4, the directors simply HAD to come up with the story as well. This led to Trek 5 and I wondered why Paramount, which "had" to give Shatner his shot at directing, let him originate the story. Nimoy had better instincts as to what made a Trek story, but it just seemed weird that this "director as story guy" bit was suddenly assumed. As such, the quality of the films dropped and everyone got all jokey.

What amuses me about this thread is the argument over which Trek film is more "deep and mature." For all of the chest beating over the "exploration of God" in TMP, it was really only mentioned in a few lines of dialog - some of that was only in the TV / Extended Edition. The film was primarily a reunion, V'Ger travelogue. You can blame Wise if you wish for trying to make Trek into 2001, but he didn't write it. The film started shooting before the ending was written, and the script was pretty thin, character-wise. So what choice did he have but to give it a sense of wonder? Years of re-viewing and reflection have made some fans see a higher purpose, but it's really not anything more than warmed over SF; a rewrite of an old "Genesis II" script. I love the film, as much as it might seem otherwise, but I am well aware of its limitations (as well as its strengths).

TWOK is Moby Dick mixed with Kirk's mid-life crisis. It's got action and good performances, but it's not any more or less profound than TMP. It gives some meat to a couple of the characters, but aside from Kirk and (thanks to the DE) Scotty, nobody else really benefits from it. However, it's got the fell of a John Meredyth Lucas production (which isn't bad at all).

Both films have heavy influences from past and superior films and books. TMP shoots for art and TWOK is space opera. Neither one qualifies as a cinema classic or has uber intelligent scripting. Both say what they have to say and are equally deep/shallow. They just say it differently.

And let's not rewrite history: the general consensus among critics, fans and those who worked on TMP was that it was boring. No matter what high minded subtext you want to find in there, the presentation was slow, ponderous and self important. It was not seen as "good" and was the poster child for how NOT to make a Star Trek film. It finished Roddenberry in Hollywood until TNG (not that he was a major force there to begin with), tarnished Robert Wise's resume and gave us the phrase "10 years for this?" It only made money because fans were desperate for any kind of new Star Trek. This was a one-time thing, as later box office disappointments have proven.

TWOK, for all of its action and pathos, was the response the studio had to the backlash. It was a 180 degree turn and the overwelming reaction by the same people as before was super positive. And then we had the phrase "now THAT's more like it!"

Both films are enjoyable and both have amazingly glaring flaws. They are equally good in different ways. But if you want deep Sci-Fi, Trek movies ain't the place to look.
 
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But if you want deep Sci-Fi, Trek movies ain't the place to look.

And that's the shame of it - they should be. TMP tried to take it in that direction. Meyer, Bennett, Nimoy and Shatner pandered and turned it into Flash Gordon. I would rather have had Trek become a "Battlestar Galactica" type show then what we ended up with. In fact, Ron Moore is the anti-Meyer - he took a cartoon and made it into serious relevant science fiction.
 
In fact, Ron Moore is the anti-Meyer - he took a cartoon and made it into serious relevant science fiction.

I always thought that the style of Ron Moore was closer to Nick Meyer than Roddenberry, so I did a little quote mining. This is from an interview he did back in March when talking about Trek XI.

Ron Moore said:
I think it’s akin to when they brought in Harve Bennett to write The Wrath of Khan. Gene Roddenberry had lived and breathed ‘Trek’ for a long time. He did The Motion Picture, and The Motion Picture is what it is – I certainly went to see it and loved it at the moment, but it was bloated and overruns and there a sense of it not really finding its feet yet.

Then they brought in Harve Bennett, who had no connection to the show, and Nicholas Meyer, who had never seen the show, and they reinvented it. They started over. They went at the costumes differently, the storytelling, the vibe of it, the style of story that they were going to do. They rescued the whole franchise. Wrath of Khan makes all the subsequent Star Trek projects possible.

Read into it what you will.
 
^^ GodBen - I remember that interview, and yes, the later films were commercially successful (though TMP is still the money champ) mainly because they went with the "pop culture" view of Trek. I would have preferred a smaller audience with more substance myself

^trekkerguy - True, but I always thought the format and underlying vision of Trek offered the opportunity for it to be more substantive, and that is what TMP I felt aimed for (even if it missed). As all things, I guess it comes down to personal preference. As a rabid Trek fan, maybe I read more substance into TOS than what was actually there, but as a fan of Heinlen, Dick, Asimov, Ellison and others, I thought Trek could become that type of substantive sci fi as well. To see it become basically pulp was disappointing to me personally. But the general public seemed to like it better, at least through STTVH, and I guess that's what matters from the business end of things.
 
But if you want deep Sci-Fi, Trek movies ain't the place to look.

And that's the shame of it - they should be. TMP tried to take it in that direction.

And since that's never what Trek was it failed to do so.

Trek is good thinkable Scifi, but it was never meant to be and never will be
"deep", for that go watch 2001 or The Fountain. It just was never Trek.

No. Star Trek is about seeking out new planets and lifeforms. TMP did it. The others didn't.

And I'd argue that there are a good dozen or two "big thinker" episodes in Trekdom. At least, as big as one can fit in a 45 minute episode.
 
Meyer is by far the best Trek director.

Particularly the way he blends future settings and old fashioned elements.
 
See, this whole discussion is why I'm convinced that Star Trek has never been at its best when it attempted to be a feature film franchise and why it should be a television property.

If you look at the whole of Star Trek on television, you will see that it has been many different things. There are definitely some deep, "big thinker" episodes. There are some pure action/adventure episodes. There are comedy episodes. There are "high concept" sci-fi episodes. And, by and large, all are able to be successful within the Trek format. The format is flexible enough to handle this variety, and the production of 22-26 episodes (or more, in the case of TOS) per season gives the producers the freedom to try alot of different things.

If you're producing 26 episodes a year, and you have a couple that don't go over well with audiences, it's not going to kill your ratings. And in television -- and particularly syndication -- you don't have to hold nearly the number of people each week that you have to have coming into a movie theater to make a film a success. For a major feature film, you have to bring in tens of millions of people for it to be considered a success. For television, a mere fraction of that.

The net result? Star Trek on the small screen can take risks, can try new things, can explore a wide range of stories. Star Trek on the big screen is continually being shoehorned into the mold of what the studio will make appeal to "mainstream" audiences. Stories like TMP very rarely get the chance to be made while stories like Nemesis get done and re-done and re-re-done ad nauseum.

In fact, I would argue that while there have definitely been some good, thought-provoking films in the last couple of decades, that the movie business has become so mass market, so homogonized, and so concerned with appealing to that "mainstream" audience, that truly thought-provoking and creative films are all too rare and that the majority of your good storytelling has happened in television.

So I personally would be content to see Trek never return to the big screen again but go back to being a television series where it can tell all these types of stories.
 
So I personally would be content to see Trek never return to the big screen again but go back to being a television series where it can tell all these types of stories.

Only then, I'd miss the rush of those amazing gala opening nights, with celebs and costumed audience members...
 
So I personally would be content to see Trek never return to the big screen again but go back to being a television series where it can tell all these types of stories.

100% agree. :techman:

Yup. And yet the TBBS is abundant with thread-lines along the lines of, "The rebooted franchise should stick to movies. There should be no more TV series." WTF is wrong with those people?
 
So I personally would be content to see Trek never return to the big screen again but go back to being a television series where it can tell all these types of stories.

100% agree. :techman:

Yup. And yet the TBBS is abundant with thread-lines along the lines of, "The rebooted franchise should stick to movies. There should be no more TV series." WTF is wrong with those people?

Yeah! They have differing opinions. What's up with that?!
 
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