News about Mercury

[scotthm]

I think the point of the post was to highlight the fact that the money spent on space exploration programs isn't wasted, because it all ends up as someone's salary.

I'm sure it does, as it would if it was spent in other ways.

I'm not against science or exploration, but you've got to admit that the knowledge that there's water on Mercury isn't likely to do us a lot of good.

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[Pavonis]

Not everything we do must have a direct benefit to everyone. Learning about Mercury benefits some of us, and that's reason enough to learn about.

It's a case of pure research and knowledge for their own sake. No immediate tangible benefits necessary to justify it.

 

[Zachary Smith]

So, some spacecraft has done a flyby of Mercury and answered some hotly debated questions like: Does the planet have a stable magnetic field? Are there volcanoes on Mercury? Is there water there? If you're intensely curious about these things, the answers are yes, yes, and yes.

Sweet. Maybe I'll spend a year there one day . . . Or maybe spend a day there one year . . . I duinno . . .

 

[scotthm]

No immediate tangible benefits necessary to justify it.

I see. So you extract money from people at gunpoint (so to speek), and then tell them there's no need for you to justify how you dispense it. You must be a congressman.

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[Pavonis]

Nope, not a congressman. I'm a scientist.

I get the feeling you don't science or scientists much. Why not?

Clearly you're not interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake. Pure science, rather than applied science, seems to irritate you. Why?

You don't have to like it, of course, but why complain about it? What do you want?

 

[scotthm]

I get the feeling you don't science or scientists much. Why not?

I have a lot of respect for science and the benefits that can come of it. It's not my religion, like it is for some, but science is a very valuable tool.

Clearly you're not interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake. Pure science, rather than applied science, seems to irritate you. Why?

I don't know how you'd come to this conclusion. Just because I believe that our limited funds for scientific research are often spent in unwise ways doesn't mean I don't value knowledge.

You don't have to like it, of course, but why complain about it?

When it's my tax dollars being spent I have every right to speak my mind on how it's being used, the same as you do.

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[Pavonis]

I have a lot of respect for science and the benefits that can come of it. It's not my religion, like it is for some, but science is a very valuable tool.

I don't know how you'd come to this conclusion. Just because I believe that our limited funds for scientific research are often spent in unwise ways doesn't mean I don't value knowledge.

If you really do value knowledge, and I'll accept your word on that, you just haven't made that clear.

When it's my tax dollars being spent I have every right to speak my mind on how it's being used, the same as you do.

Fine, complain about it, it's all the same to me. Once the probe was launched, complaining is about all you can do. It would be a real waste to shut down the MESSENGER mission at this point, when the probe hasn't even reached it's primary mission stage, which is to orbit Mercury and study it in even greater detail than these first flybys. So I shouldn't complain about your complaints.

But boiling the issue down, you really do think studying Mercury is a waste of time, money, and presumably talent. Is that because you don't see any immediate need to study Mercury? Well, I suppose there's not. It's not going to save anyone's life, it's not going to turn a profit. It's just learning about Mercury because we really don't know that much about it. Learning about Mercury can teach us a few things about planetary evolution, though, and comparing and contrasting Mercury with Earth can be useful for understanding the different kinds of geological processes that can operate on a planet. Learning about Mercury and it's magnetic field may give us some insights into Earth's magnetic field - and knowing more about Earth's magnetic field is important, as it serves to protect us from the solar wind, sheltering satellites that facilitate communications and navigation on Earth.

Learning about Mercury might not have any direct and/or immediate benefits, but it may have some benefits down the line, indirectly, which might retroactively justify the whole program. Of course, I can't guarantee that, but serendipity isn't a predictable phenomenon.

Having said all that, I'm certain you will not have changed your opinion on the program. I am curious to know what programs you would find worthwhile, either current missions or missions you would like to see. I am honestly curious.

 

[Ronald Held]

Pure research and knowledge for their own sake is enough for me. I would think a prosperous society could allocate a small percentage of its funds for research.

 

[Shaw]

I get the feeling you don't science or scientists much. Why not?

I think he wants his two cents back because he doesn't think he got his money's worth.

Lets face it, nothing will provide any justification for those who have already decided this has no value. If it had any value to them, they would know enough to understand what we get back from it.

Instead, it is easier to expend energy on complaining rather than learning. Easier to call science a religion rather than actually learn about it. Easier to dismiss what is valuable to others than acknowledge the fact that it is beyond their attention span.


Fortunately there are intelligent people in our world who can understand that not everything that is valuable can be distilled down to the level of understanding that those who are looking for a tax scape goat can be dissuaded from attacking it.

At one point people had no idea what computers or a world wide network would provide for people, and the technology of what was happening was beyond explanation to the average tax payer. But our government pushed forward with it even without knowing what would come of that research.

Knowledge is not gained on a schedule. Nor can it's benefits be quickly turned around or even foreseen. And those who don't understand the value of knowledge find it an easy target... even with all the historical evidence at hand.

In the area of mathematics (the area I know best) we have two main branches... pure mathematics and applied mathematics. Those who do pure mathematics are creating (or discovering) new math without worrying about what it is going to be used for. Each kernel of knowledge gained has unknown value for the future. Those who do applied mathematics take those kernels of knowledge from pure mathematics and use them to solve real world problems.

In the past there have been gaps of 30 to 150 years between the discovery of new math and it's applications to some area of science or economics. What seemed like an interesting thought experiment one day might years later be the key to unlocking some of the mysteries of physics. Granted, all a pure mathematician really needs is the time to think of such things... but other aspects of science require interacting with nature in ways that are not all that cheap.

And I for one am glad that those with such a myopic view of life aren't able to turn the world around them into an amish paridise (though it is hard to believe that such people would frequent a science fiction forum... or even own computers for that matter).

 

[scotthm]

Learning about Mercury and it's magnetic field may give us some insights into Earth's magnetic field - and knowing more about Earth's magnetic field is important, as it serves to protect us from the solar wind, sheltering satellites that facilitate communications and navigation on Earth.

I understand where you're coming from, and again, have nothing against knowledge (even of irrelevant things.) I'm far from convinced that knowing absolutely everything about Earth's magnetic field would ever allow us manipulate or control it though, so it's unclear if there can ever be any payoff, and at least we can both agree on that.

I am curious to know what programs you would find worthwhile, either current missions or missions you would like to see. I am honestly curious.

As far as space research, as much as I find many of the discoveries fascinating, I'm not convinced that any of it is "worthwhile" (and I'm specifically talking about planetary expeditions.) However I'm not a total scrooge when it comes to space science. I'd like research into advanced propulsion systems, and the study of human physiology in low gravity, to continue. I'm sure there are other things I could find some value in, and as you say, there may even one day be some value from things that seem pointless now.

Lets face it, nothing will provide any justification for those who have already decided this has no value.

Not true. If the Phoenix lander (to use that mission as an example) found a cave on Mars while scraping away at the surface, and that cave opened up into the hollow interior or Mars, and if that interior was discovered to be like a 'garden of eden', I'd change my mind very quickly about the value of that mission.

It's not so much that I think these planetary missions can't have value, it's that I don't think they're the wisest way to spend our limited science funds. I could complain about money wasted on many, many other things too, but that's not the topic here.

Anyway, I'm glad this spacecraft is working properly, and I hope it gets every bit of information it can out of Mercury.

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[Pavonis]

I understand where you're coming from, and again, have nothing against knowledge (even of irrelevant things.) I'm far from convinced that knowing absolutely everything about Earth's magnetic field would ever allow us manipulate or control it though, so it's unclear if there can ever be any payoff, and at least we can both agree on that.

I don't know where you got the idea that manipulating Earth's magnetic field was a goal of any science project. Just anticipating its behavior is a worthy goal.

As far as space research, as much as I find many of the discoveries fascinating, I'm not convinced that any of it is "worthwhile" (and I'm specifically talking about planetary expeditions.) However I'm not a total scrooge when it comes to space science. I'd like research into advanced propulsion systems, and the study of human physiology in low gravity, to continue. I'm sure there are other things I could find some value in, and as you say, there may even one day be some value from things that seem pointless now.

Advanced propulsion systems and low-g physiological responses in the human body...sounds like you want to go places. Ignoring the fact that the science return from unmanned probes is considerably greater than that from manned missions, I'd suggest you should think of these unmanned probes as scouts for the day we decide to go somewhere.

If the Phoenix lander (to use that mission as an example) found a cave on Mars while scraping away at the surface, and that cave opened up into the hollow interior or Mars, and if that interior was discovered to be like a 'garden of eden', I'd change my mind very quickly about the value of that mission.

It's not so much that I think these planetary missions can't have value, it's that I don't think they're the wisest way to spend our limited science funds. I could complain about money wasted on many, many other things too, but that's not the topic here.

Petitioning for more science funding would be another way to go.

Anyway, I'm glad this spacecraft is working properly, and I hope it gets every bit of information it can out of Mercury.

That's the spirit. You might as well hope it produces as much data as it can now that it is out there, so we all get as much bang for our "wasted" buck as possible.

 

[TerriO]

Not true. If the Phoenix lander (to use that mission as an example) found a cave on Mars while scraping away at the surface, and that cave opened up into the hollow interior or Mars, and if that interior was discovered to be like a 'garden of eden', I'd change my mind very quickly about the value of that mission.

*facepalm*

Damn, there goes that novel.

*shakes head*

And yes, I'm serious. Don't worry about it, I've got 15 others in the queue to replace it.

 

[scotthm]

Damn, there goes that novel.

*shakes head*

And yes, I'm serious.

And I bet you were going to title it "John Carter of Pellucidar".

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[John Picard]

So, some spacecraft has done a flyby of Mercury and answered some hotly debated questions like: Does the planet have a stable magnetic field? Are there volcanoes on Mercury? Is there water there? If you're intensely curious about these things, the answers are yes, yes, and yes.

Sweet. Maybe I'll spend a year there one day . . . Or maybe spend a day there one year . . . I dunno . . .

I have an A-Frame up there, so let me know when you plan to visit and I'll give you the keys.

 

[trevanian]

One has to spend money to make money. For every dollar invested (SPENT) in the Space Program, I believe the return is ten dollars. Not a bad ROI.

There you go. That's what I'm looking for. Source?

I don't think that is right, but the dollar multiplier (where you see how many times the dollar is spent in the US before it disappears) IS very high, so that is significant in terms of how many lives that dollar affects. Probably find it on a NASA or space.com website, you'd figure.

If you want a real return on your investment, go for all that platinum in the asteroid belt. Whoever brings that home will redefine 'wealth' for that country and the world for some time to come.

 

[Zachary Smith]

So, some spacecraft has done a flyby of Mercury and answered some hotly debated questions like: Does the planet have a stable magnetic field? Are there volcanoes on Mercury? Is there water there? If you're intensely curious about these things, the answers are yes, yes, and yes.

Sweet. Maybe I'll spend a year there one day . . . Or maybe spend a day there one year . . . I dunno . . .

I have an A-Frame up there, so let me know when you plan to visit and I'll give you the keys.

Just leave them under the mat! (Ouch! OUCH!~ OUch! OW! OUch!)