New to 'Mad Men'

[Top41]

Don's advice echoes the way he's coped with bad situations in his own life - he seems to assume that authority figures are too intimidating to ever directly confront and lacks a sense of self that would allow him to confront them. Instead, he tells Peggy to tell whatever lie she needs to, in order to placate the powerful and wriggle out of their control.

Don seems so overtly powerful that it was a real surprise to hear him talk like that, but not really. In fact, it's perfectly in character for him. His powerful aura is all a facade. It's really unusual for any show to have such a powerless and cowardly lead character - very original.

Agreed--very original and interesting. He seemed vulnerable in that moment, like he was giving her genuine advice from his own life experience. I really liked that scene.

I loved the way the legal limit for drunk driving was .15% - almost double what it is today. I guess it was harder for people to get drunk back then.

Not to mention that Don was actually drinking as he was driving, lol. That was kind of surprising--these days on TVs you'd only see idiot teens or alcoholic characters doing that.

Am I just imagining that or is Don painted a lot more sympathetically in the second season so far than in the first one? Ok, he's still a cheating drunkard, but he's shown as honestly loving his kids and his wife (a vibe I didn't get in the beginning of the show), caring about Peggy, and he might just be the most openminded and progressive male character in the whole show.

From what it sounds like from what Dorian has said, he sounds much more sympathetic this season than last.

That actress sort of specializes in obnoxious, she was Sculley's sister on XFILES.

I think she is supposed to represent a different 'type' than, say, Don's Jewish GF from season 1 or the bohemian, something a little more, dare I say orthodox/pragmatic and Eisenhower-era.

LOL, that makes sense. Speaking of...was the woman they ran into in the bar or club (when Don and Bobbie sat down for a drink) one of Don's ex-mistresses?

Not sure what her ongoing appeal is for Don, I thought she'd've been gone from the show before last week, but now have to think there might be an arc for her (unless Don reunites with the Jewish heiress, who has some interesting chemistry with him.)

I keep hoping she'll be gone and she keeps coming back every week.

Peggy's not going to drop out of society. Peggy's time is coming. She's going to get that corner office. Peggy's based on Helen Gurley Brown, who started as a secretary and then someone gave her a chance to write copy when none of the other women around her were doing it. It's Don who's going to become extinct.

Here's hoping for Peggy.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

The woman Don and Bobbie saw in the club was Rachel, the Jewish store owner Don had an affair with last season. He claimed to love her and told her all about his past. He asked her to run away to California with him on the spot after the unfortunate incident with his brother and with certain secrets about to come out at the office. Finally, Rachel got a clue. Hey, this guy is just going to leave his kids without a word. If he does it with you, he'll do it to you, honey. She called him a coward and said, "You're just running away."

That's what Don does. If Rachel had said "yes," he'd have left Betty and the kids without a goodbye and sent child support checks. That's our Don. He's put the incident with his brother out of his mind just like Peggy's put her child out of her mind.

 

[Top41]

^Cool, thanks for filling me in! I figured that was someone he'd had an affair with in the previous season. Kind of surprising that he wanted to run away with her given what I've seen this season--he seems pretty wedded to his job, and he does seem to care about his family. It's hard to imagine he was just ready to up and leave them.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

He was. He was about to be found out, or so he thought, (the big boss ended up not caring that he'd changed his name and identity) so he was going to run to California to protect himself. It's a pattern he repeats. He left his little brother high and dry after pushing a check (a check his brother didn't want) into his hands and telling him to leave him alone forever. His younger brother was a lonely, pathetic sort of soul. He just wanted a brother. You got the idea he was a bit slow. Don was too afraid of being found out, so he couldn't be bothered. He pushed money at him to ease his conscience. When he finally decided to give him a call months later, it was too late.

I think Don cares about Betty on a basic level (he isn't in love with her, she was the unattainable beauty and "good mother" material a dirt poor boy could never hope to get) and he loves his kids, but Temis nailed it. Don's an emotional coward. He'd have put his own needs ahead of his kids to escape if Rachel had said yes. She called him a coward and told him to leave. That's the only reason his kids still have a father.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Kind of surprising that he wanted to run away with her given what I've seen this season

He responds to everything like a scared rabbit. His whole life is just him trying to keep control of his panic attacks. That's why he seems so stiff all the time - his posture is practically Frankensteinian - it's like he's physically keeping his emotional wreck of a mind from getting loose through sheer force of will.

I think Rachel intuited that she didn't want to run away with a scared rabbit.

he seems pretty wedded to his job, and he does seem to care about his family.

Having a nice job and family is "normal" so it's part of his defense. He grew up in a horrible family situation on a grubby farm, and he wants to stay as far away as possible from that situation. The reason he changed his identity in the first place was to pretend to his family that he was dead, so he could evict them from his mind for good.

I don't know if this detail has come up in this thread, but Don's mother was a prostitute who died when he was born. The story was, he was simply given to his father - and considering it was a small town and the actor who played his father looked a lot like Don, I guess it really was his real father - but that story has always struck me as weird. How does Don really know what happened at all?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

His loving stepmother called him a "whore child." That's who I assume he heard it from. She sniped at him pretty good in the flashbacks with all her icy little digs at Don. I guess she didn't approve of her husband's child from a prostitute being dumped on her doorstep, but you have to wonder. If his birth mother really was a prostitute who slept with lots of men, how would they know for sure Don was Mr. Whitman's biological child? It's not as if they had DNA testing back in the 1920s; perhaps Don's mother was just a woman with whom Mr. Whitman had an affair. They were pretty poor, and Mrs. Whitman was very bitter. From my perspective, she'd have had to be pretty sure this was her husband's child to take him in since they had next to nothing. The second scenario sounds more likely to me.

Still it all adds up to Don having one hell of a madonna/whore complex when it comes to women.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Ha! Can I see the future or what? Do you believe me about that madonna/whore complex of Don's, Top41? As God is my witness, I hadn't read any spoilers. Could he have been any more of a JERK??????? Arrrrrghhh!!! I wanted to smack Don up one side and down the other!! Yes darling, you are a whore. Bobbi is right, Mr. Draper. And she's not that bad. I love how Don couldn't handle finding out that Bobbi was a mother, and a mother who loved her kids at that. Sexy woman also a mother who loves kids? It doesn't compute in Don's mind. I cheered when Bobbi told him he had a reputation. You were a sure thing, Donny boy.

Peggy looked gorgeous at the end. Pete is sooooo hung up on her even to this day. They're so pathetic, yet so cute. Peggy's going to have to figure out how to balance it and play the boys' game until she has the power. She'll have it one day, and Don will be extinct. I also thought it was a nice touch that they didn't get the playtex account because the execs told them they made more money just pointing out that their bras fit better--that it didn't have to go through the sexualized Marilyn/Jackie lens that the men envisioned, that womens decisions didn't have everything to do with them.

Oh, and Duck Phillips needs to rot in hell.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The further adventures of Don the Dumbass. Okay, it was interesting for a while but now it's started to get repetitive. Time for something BIG to happen with his story.

At least Peggy had some sort of evolution in this episode, even if it isn't very far (it's still all about her career). Pete is going to snap - he's got that serial killer look.

Duck needs to DIE. People who are mean to animals really get my goat.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Actually, I see Don getting violent before Pete. Pete, I think, wants to get caught deep down so he can get out of his marriage. If he gets caught, Trudy might leave him. He doesn't have the courage to rock the boat himself and lose his father in law's contacts. Pete just doesn't strike me as the violent type. Pete's a floundering fish out of water who desperately wants to fit in somewhere and be important. Don was seriously scary there for a moment or two. I can see him beating Betty up if she ever strayed, while Pete would probably be thankful if Trudy did, if truth were told. I can definitely see Don being the type who would end up in jail for shooting his wife's lover. The man is walking a razor's edge. Of course neither man would leave a dog out on the streets. That may be their only good quality, though.

It looks desperate. Jackass. He of course said the one thing that would destroy her self esteem. A simple, "it looks too provocative" wasn't good enough for Don. A brilliant episode about sexism and duality.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The final scene suggests Don is going thru a crisis of self-realization. He's closer to getting out of his trap than Pete is, who is very far away from self-realization. Him glancing at himself in the mirror and then just looking away, without much reaction (or suppressing the reaction) was a hint of that.

Peggy is also far from self-realization. Having a job writing copy for silly bra ads is not self-realization; it may be a smart economic move, but she's also using it as a way of avoiding the rest of her life.

In the horse race of Getting Our of Their Personal Trap, I'd say Don and Betty are closest to the finish line, with Peggy and Pete somewhere behind.

We'll see the most violent reaction from whichever characters are most stalled in moving forward. I think that might actually be Peggy. She's moving forward, but not in the right way.

At least this gives me some degree of interest seeing the rest of the season because on a superficial level, the affairs/domestic crises/ad campaigns are really not all that interesting to me. But the horse race is fun.

 

[darthraidr]

so Duck is the guy with the dog? how was he mean to the dog? the way i read the sequence was that he was going to kill himself. the dog was watching him, and he couldnt kill himself with someone watching, so he let the dog go, then (i assume) went back to the office to contemplate killing himself. i figure the guy lost his wife (now getting re-married) and isnt doing well in his job, and his boss doesnt seem to like him, so killing himself seemed like the way the story was heading.

Peggy... i like her less and less as the show goes on. she wasnt included in the boys night out discussions because she was lagging behind.

i think my favorite guy on the show is the heavy set account guy (or is he an ad guy?). he seems decent enough. he's championed for peggy before, and seems sincere.

 

[Super Grover]

i think my favorite guy on the show is the heavy set account guy (or is he an ad guy?). he seems decent enough. he's championed for peggy before, and seems sincere.

The guy played by Joel Murray, I think his name is Fred Rasmussen. I like him and the goofy guy with the glasses.

 

[trevanian]

so Duck is the guy with the dog? how was he mean to the dog? the way i read the sequence was that he was going to kill himself. the dog was watching him, and he couldnt kill himself with someone watching, so he let the dog go, then (i assume) went back to the office to contemplate killing himself. i figure the guy lost his wife (now getting re-married) and isnt doing well in his job, and his boss doesnt seem to like him, so killing himself seemed like the way the story was heading.

I thought he was just gonna start drinking again, but regardless, letting a dog outside on madison avenue at night is essentially murdering it and inexcuseable under any circumstances.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Duck kicked out the dog so he could drink in peace. Abandoning a dog is tantamount to murder.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Duck kicked out the dog so he could drink in peace. Abandoning a dog is tantamount to murder.

Duck can kill himself as far as I care, but he could have taken the dog to the ASPCA. A beautiful pure-bred Irish setter would find a home!

 

[darthraidr]

i am shocked at the extreme reaction to the treatment of the dog... it's a dog... it's not like Duck is abandoning a kid. in fact, Duck seemed to care far more for his dog than his own children. is his treatment of the dog the worse thing they've shown him doing? that puts him at the top of the 'decent folk' list in the world of mad men.

maybe i've missed the segments where he's cheated on his wife multiple times, or ignored a baby, or stole his officer's dog tags to start a new life...

he let a dog go... not got drunk, went driving, got into an accident, had a co-worker help cover it up... not sleep with a girl that was being cast (or a set of twins being cast)... he let a dog go...

chances are the dog would walk down the street and get picked up by someone.

Fred is a good guy.
Goofy guy with glasses (Head of TV ads) is an 'good' guy too. (even though he cheated on his wife, he did seem truly sorry about it. But i'd still rank, letting a dog go as a far lighter crime than adultery)

 

[Top41]

Ha! Can I see the future or what? Do you believe me about that madonna/whore complex of Don's, Top41? As God is my witness, I hadn't read any spoilers. Could he have been any more of a JERK??????? Arrrrrghhh!!! I wanted to smack Don up one side and down the other!! Yes darling, you are a whore. Bobbi is right, Mr. Draper. And she's not that bad. I love how Don couldn't handle finding out that Bobbi was a mother, and a mother who loved her kids at that. Sexy woman also a mother who loves kids? It doesn't compute in Don's mind. I cheered when Bobbi told him he had a reputation. You were a sure thing, Donny boy.

You sure did call it, Dorian. Don really, really has issues with women. There's still something that really grates on my nerves when it comes to Bobbi, but Don trying to dominate her was just creepy and then him leaving when he didn't get his way just kind of underscored how he can't handle women. It all comes back to sex, though--he doesn't seem to treat Peggy, who he clearly doesn't see in a sexual way--badly. The guy has Issues with a capital I.

Peggy looked gorgeous at the end. Pete is sooooo hung up on her even to this day. They're so pathetic, yet so cute. Peggy's going to have to figure out how to balance it and play the boys' game until she has the power. She'll have it one day, and Don will be extinct. I also thought it was a nice touch that they didn't get the playtex account because the execs told them they made more money just pointing out that their bras fit better--that it didn't have to go through the sexualized Marilyn/Jackie lens that the men envisioned, that womens decisions didn't have everything to do with them.

That was a cool scene at the end. I felt bad for Peggy, essentially getting shut out of the ad campaign. I hope she doesn't have to play on sex appeal to get ahead; I like that from what I've seen, it's her savvy that's gotten her where she is today. Pete does still seem to be into her.

Oh, and Duck Phillips needs to rot in hell.

Yeah, when he basically tossed that poor, beautiful dog out on the street, I was .

The further adventures of Don the Dumbass. Okay, it was interesting for a while but now it's started to get repetitive. Time for something BIG to happen with his story.

Yeah, I hope it goes somewhere because this ep felt a tad stagnant to me.

At least Peggy had some sort of evolution in this episode, even if it isn't very far (it's still all about her career). Pete is going to snap - he's got that serial killer look.

Pete is too emotionless--something is off there. The way he reacted to his father's death was bizarre. I hope we kind of get to see into his psyche some more.

Duck needs to DIE. People who are mean to animals really get my goat.

Same here.

Actually, I see Don getting violent before Pete. Pete, I think, wants to get caught deep down so he can get out of his marriage. If he gets caught, Trudy might leave him. He doesn't have the courage to rock the boat himself and lose his father in law's contacts. Pete just doesn't strike me as the violent type. Pete's a floundering fish out of water who desperately wants to fit in somewhere and be important. Don was seriously scary there for a moment or two. I can see him beating Betty up if she ever strayed, while Pete would probably be thankful if Trudy did, if truth were told. I can definitely see Don being the type who would end up in jail for shooting his wife's lover. The man is walking a razor's edge. Of course neither man would leave a dog out on the streets. That may be their only good quality, though.

It looks desperate. Jackass. He of course said the one thing that would destroy her self esteem. A simple, "it looks too provocative" wasn't good enough for Don. A brilliant episode about sexism and duality.

The final scene suggests Don is going thru a crisis of self-realization. He's closer to getting out of his trap than Pete is, who is very far away from self-realization. Him glancing at himself in the mirror and then just looking away, without much reaction (or suppressing the reaction) was a hint of that.

Peggy is also far from self-realization. Having a job writing copy for silly bra ads is not self-realization; it may be a smart economic move, but she's also using it as a way of avoiding the rest of her life.

In the horse race of Getting Our of Their Personal Trap, I'd say Don and Betty are closest to the finish line, with Peggy and Pete somewhere behind.

We'll see the most violent reaction from whichever characters are most stalled in moving forward. I think that might actually be Peggy. She's moving forward, but not in the right way.

At least this gives me some degree of interest seeing the rest of the season because on a superficial level, the affairs/domestic crises/ad campaigns are really not all that interesting to me. But the horse race is fun.

I gotta say, I really enjoy reading both of your perspectives, Dorian and Temis. It's cool that one of you is more sympathetic to Don, the other to Pete. I feel like I fall somewhere in the middle--I haven't seen the first season yet, so I don't really react strongly to either one.

so Duck is the guy with the dog? how was he mean to the dog? the way i read the sequence was that he was going to kill himself. the dog was watching him, and he couldnt kill himself with someone watching, so he let the dog go, then (i assume) went back to the office to contemplate killing himself. i figure the guy lost his wife (now getting re-married) and isnt doing well in his job, and his boss doesnt seem to like him, so killing himself seemed like the way the story was heading.

I didn't get that sense at all--I assumed he simply didn't want the responsibility of the dog.

i am shocked at the extreme reaction to the treatment of the dog... it's a dog... it's not like Duck is abandoning a kid. in fact, Duck seemed to care far more for his dog than his own children. is his treatment of the dog the worse thing they've shown him doing? that puts him at the top of the 'decent folk' list in the world of mad men.

maybe i've missed the segments where he's cheated on his wife multiple times, or ignored a baby, or stole his officer's dog tags to start a new life...

he let a dog go... not got drunk, went driving, got into an accident, had a co-worker help cover it up... not sleep with a girl that was being cast (or a set of twins being cast)... he let a dog go...

chances are the dog would walk down the street and get picked up by someone.

It was such a heartless act. Adultery is something that while not good or noble, can have mitigating circumstances behind it. Abandoning a defenseless animal? Not so much. He could have at least taken the dog to a shelter. Still sad, but at least not cruel. Cruelty towards animals just makes my stomach turn. Only a special kind of asshole would do that to an animal that couldn't fend for itself.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

i am shocked at the extreme reaction to the treatment of the dog... it's a dog... it's not like Duck is abandoning a kid. in fact, Duck seemed to care far more for his dog than his own children

Well the guy didn't throw out his children so they can run in the street and get hit by a car did he? The operative analogy would be if they were toddlers. Say he stops the car and tosses a toddler at the side of a freeway and drives away. Zat okay?

chances are the dog would walk down the street and get picked up by someone.

Wrong. Try calling your local ASPCA and asking their opinion on the topic. I'm sure they'll give you one hell of a scathing earfull.

It all comes back to sex, though--he doesn't seem to treat Peggy, who he clearly doesn't see in a sexual way--badly.

He sees Peggy as the loney outcast - which is how Don sees himself. He treats her well because she's one of the few women he can identify with.

I gotta say, I really enjoy reading both of your perspectives, Dorian and Temis. It's cool that one of you is more sympathetic to Don, the other to Pete.

I'm sympathetic to both, and to neither, in a way. I see them like I see all fictional characters, effectively as things rather than people. Which they are, since they don't actually exist - they are products created by actors and writers (and directors, makeup people, costume people etc) in collaboration.

If I think a character is well written and performed, so that they come off as real and elicit my sympathy (and all good characters must elicit at least some sympathy once you understand what the intention of the character is), I respect what went into the work. I don't see Don as good or bad but as a good or bad character - and he's a very good character because he's complex and he fits well into the overall story. Same for Pete. Even if they threw a dog into traffic or became an axe murderer, I'd still think they were good characters. But if they start ringing false or have no role in the story or are allowed to stagnate, I'll start slamming them, even if they behave like angels.

 

[J.T.B.]

Draper's relationship with Bobbie has really highlighted his problems with women and with his life. Bobbie is self created, like Don, but has made herself into a more actualized person, who enjoys life on her own terms. At heart Don is still a furtive schemer who has to try to keep everything around hm under control for fear of being found out. Which, of course, keeps him from enjoying his life and from forming meaningful relationships. He may be starting to realize how messed up he is.

I thought Duck Phillips and the dog was actually more humanizing for that character, who hasn't had much depth so far. Clearly a guy who will abandon a pet he obviously cares about has some pretty bad problems. To me, that was more "sad," while Don's emotional abandonment of his brother was more "bad."

Peggy is trying things out, but obviously she was not comfortable in the "role" she was playing in the strip club scene. Hopefully she will be able to succeed on her own terms.

I didn't like the choice of the Decemberists song to open the episode. It's a fine song, but it took me out of the period feel.

As an aside, as much as I like "Mad Men," I've been watching the final season of "The Wire" on DVD and it makes "Mad Men" look like small potatoes.

--Justin

 

[TheArsenal]

I've finally both watched the Season 1 DVDs and caught up with the Season 2 episodes stored in the DVR buffer.

I'm enjoying this show quite a bit. It is not at all what I expected. I imagined the focus would be on the more overt elements of the time; the racism, sexism, lax safety standards and the slowly changing society and attitudes of the early sixties. These things are there, but they are simply the structure the show is built on. They are there only to inform us about the decisions and world the characters inhabit. And only rarely have I caught the show using these elements as "in your face" commentary. Everything is subtle, or in the cases they are not subtle, understood to be the "norm" and we are trusted to judge these things through our own eyes without the show having to scream at us (look at those crazy early 60's! can you believe it!? pregnant women smoke! children don't wear seat belts! neighbors can hit your kid!).

I'm also enjoying the unfolding complexity of the characters. I'm not wholly sympathetic to Don Draper's actions at this point, but I am very sympathetic to his situation. That's a hard balancing act. And I really appreciate that he, and several others, are complex and unpredictable. His life is literally built on a lie. But then, its more or less appropriate, because everything in that world seems to be built on people convincing themselves of the lie. Right down to the central profession of the show, advertising. I noticed the characters infrequently, but pointedly, use the exact phrase "all this" to refer to how much they have, or how good their life is. But it is always in the context where the viewer can starkly see how false and empty the statements are, even if they don't realize it.

Don's character has always rubbed me the wrong way while Pete, whom I should hate with a vengeance, I don't. Maybe it's that Kartheiser is a better actor. I'm not sure why. He's always seemed to have more nuance to his acting, at least in my opinion.

What I find fascinating is how they've positioned Peggy and Pete. Pete was, without a doubt, introduced as an unsympathetic character, and Peggy, who was initially our window into this world, the most normal, level headed and sympathetic. But its looking increasingly like she is able to compartmentalize, shut out feeling, and convince herself of the lie in the name of moving forward (I loved Draper's telling line to her in the hospital: "you'll be amazed at just how much this didn't happen" and the flip side of that coin when he honestly seemed to not remember he owed her bail money). And like Draper, the more we see of her and her life, the less her decisions are understood and the more opaque she becomes. Pete, for all his irritating blue-blood nakedly ambitious ways, actually feels emotion in ways the viewer can connect. He's unlikeable most times, but recognizably, occasionally sympathetically, human.

Duck needs a good kicking.