Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Deano2099]

Why does anyone think that pocket is so bothered about keeping the current litverse vs the opportunity to have the ability to write books that might pull in new readers based on the publicity value of a new series?

They clearly want to do both. What we don't know is if they can. We don't even know if the rights in the new contract include series launched during contract. They may not have the rights to do stuff tying into the Picard series. We don't know. We also don't know if the series will be good or a car crash. The existing set-up is basically guaranteed income - it's a small, loyal fanbase that buy most of it. And it makes money. The new stuff has much more potential to do far better but it's risky. It's new. I don't know what Pocket's risk appetite is like at the moment.

The books have to be consistent with onscreen material for contractual reasons, but the onscreen material does not have to take books into consideration.

They don't nix books already in development. That would be idiotic of them to say the least, given that once an author starts writing a novel, they have to be paid for it, regardless if it's published or not. By publishing it, they at least get they opportunity to make their money back.

There's a contradiction there though. They have to be consistent, unless they were already in development. How do you prove and what counts as "development" ?

The reasons behind the "gap year" and lengthy re-negotiations have been made clear, basically a whole bunch of outside factors inconveniently creating the situation.

I've not seen that but would be interested in a link.

Regardless, Pocket is not in a position to say "promise you keep our continuity or we walk." If such a demand were made, CBS would let them walk. Pocket or any publisher holding the Trek license dances to CBS's tune. If CBS wants the continuity wiped clean, it gets wiped clean. Nature of the beast. Star Trek is a property with worldwide appeal, and indeed there have been rumours of other publishers trying to get a hold of the license. CBS can turn to anyone to get Star Trek books published, but Pocket needs CBS's approval to publish Trek novels. Therefore CBS calls the shots, and Pocket keeps them happy.

They are in a position to negotiate though. I don't for a minute think it would be that easy, but certainly I can imagine them getting to a position where they agree that they'll fit in with the broad strokes of the new series - for example they'll move Picard towards where he is now, and not actively contradict anything, while at the same time being given the leeway to not have to cancel the whole line because of a few things referenced in an off-hand comment. There's levels to this.

Besides, the one thing everyone seems to be overlooking is what is so special about novel continuity that CBS should uphold it as opposed to continuity from other mediums like STO or comics?

I don't expect them to uphold it at all. They're not going to do any active work. But I would not be surprised if they were a bit more flexible towards it, not be demanding the line be cancelled because Picard mentions Riker went on to captain the Stormhouse and not the Titan. Again, don't think for a minute they would bother to say "Titan" on the show, but they might turn a blind eye to it.

 

[Kertrats47]

I don't disagree with anything you said here, except that Riker commanding the Titan is canon. We see him promoted and leaving to take command of her in Nemesis.

That's all; carry on!

 

[Tuskin38]

I don't expect them to uphold it at all. They're not going to do any active work. But I would not be surprised if they were a bit more flexible towards it, not be demanding the line be cancelled because Picard mentions Riker went on to captain the Stormhouse and not the Titan. Again, don't think for a minute they would bother to say "Titan" on the show, but they might turn a blind eye to it.

Riker getting a ship named Titan came from Nemesis, not the books.
Now the class name and design come from the novels.

 

[Oz Trekkie]

Why does anyone think that pocket is so bothered about keeping the current litverse vs the opportunity to have the ability to write books that might pull in new readers based on the publicity value of a new series?

They will write new novels based on the new series. The new series doesn't have to contradict what has happened in the post-Nemesis Litverse though.

 

[chrinFinity]

It just seems like there's so much opportunity to play nice. Look at how LitVerse could play into the show:

1. Show's dialogue can just treat Data as dead without conflicting, because it's supposed to be a huge secret (for his protection) that he's alive, and other characters can still look at photos and miss him. It works on both levels.

2. Picard's done some shady shit and the writing on the wall in LitVerse is that he's about to have his (professional) ass handed to him. That can lead into him being situated wildly differently in 2399. It's a match made in licensing.

3. It's cheaper to use existing art designs (cough*new ds9*cough*titan*aventine*cough) than building from scratch, especially if you need "a ship for Riker to show up on" or "bajoran/cardassian episode setting." What I mean is that if they decide, for instance, that they want to show Titan, there is literally no good reason whatsoever not to use the Luna class design and call it Luna-class. To do literally anything otherwise, without compelling story reason, would be a deliberate middle finger to Lit fans. Say Picard needs a super-fast space ship that can only be used sometimes, for story reasons? You have it already. All you need is someone to complain "Too bad benamite crystals are so rare, or more ships could use quantum slipstream." That's one line. And you get Nicole deBoer to guest star; It's win-win. Casuals aren't going to fail to understand any of the above just because they haven't read the books. But you know what, it just might make them want to read those books... Hmmm...

4. If you want to use Janeway/O'Brien/Jake or whoever else, fine, just be a little bit hazy in show-continuity on what they might have been up to between 2379 and 2386. Then you have thirteen entire years worth of time in which to tenderize the characters into whatever the show's story requires. There is enough room in there for everything to play nice, if they only care enough. You can even have Seven of Nine, sans implants, and just not mention with great specificity exactly why or how they got removed. That's how they treated Geordi's visor in Star Trek: First Contact. All we saw was that his eyes were different now, and it was left up to interpretation. There's no reason they need to write a line that says "Doctor McCoy came out of retirement and removed my implants in 2381!" which would fuck LitVerse, when the same line can just be "I haven't had implants for some time now..." or even just nothing. "I understand you are a former Borg. / That is correct." LESS IS MORE.

5. Not for nothing, but the show could do whatever they wanted astro-politically... Hobus and Romulus could have galactic balance-of-power-altering ramifications, in other words, a convenient built in excuse from how things got from "Typhon Pact detente/maybe cold-war" to whatever space governments are supposed to be frenemies in the future Picard series. That's enough time even for something unlikely, like the Cardassians getting belligerent again, for example.

What is it Cameron Mitchell says in SG1's 200th episode? "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment." Or as Quincy Taggart says, "Never give up. Never surrender."

 

[The Wormhole]

There's a contradiction there though. They have to be consistent, unless they were already in development. How do you prove and what counts as "development" ?

When an author signs a contract to begin writing a novel, it's dated. Novel being written counts as "development."

I've not seen that but would be interested in a link.

It's covered all throughout the 2018 thread, but basically Pocket Books underwent a change in senior leadership, and the new leadership suspended all ongoing contract negotiations until they could conduct their own review. Also, Pocket's attempt to gain the rights to Kelvin Timeline material resulted in additional complications to the negotiations.

I can imagine them getting to a position where they agree that they'll fit in with the broad strokes of the new series

No, they will be consistent with the new series, or there's no dice. There's no "broad strokes" here. If the new series says Picard resigned from Starfleet a year or so after Nemesis after following the death of Dr. Crusher and severe injuries suffered by Geordi with Riker and Deanna now refusing to speak with him and Worf has gone into seclusion in a Klingon monastery, then that's canon now and Pocket has to reflect that in their new novels. They don't want to play game, CBS calls up Titan Publishing and asks if they're still interested in the Trek novel license.

This has happened before. Pocket had a novel continuity going on in the 1980s until TNG came along and Roddenberry forced them to erase their novel continuity, and that was with a show set a century later. This show is only twenty years after Nemesis. Make even less sense to keep the novel continuity.

This isn't unprecedented at all. Doctor Who has had its novel continuity abandoned twice, once due to change in publishers, the other time because of the show's return to TV. There's the infamous erasure of the Star Wars EU a few years back. There is noting unique to Star Trek that will exempt it from getting a similar treatment.

 

[Oz Trekkie]

This isn't unprecedented at all. Doctor Who has had its novel continuity abandoned twice, once due to change in publishers, the other time because of the show's return to TV. There's the infamous erasure of the Star Wars EU a few years back. There is noting unique to Star Trek that will exempt it from getting a similar treatment.

It is unique............ it is Star Trek!!!!

 

[Damian]

It just seems like there's so much opportunity to play nice. Look at how LitVerse could play into the show:

1. Show's dialogue can just treat Data as dead without conflicting, because it's supposed to be a huge secret (for his protection) that he's alive, and other characters can still look at photos and miss him. It works on both levels.

2. Picard's done some shady shit and the writing on the wall in LitVerse is that he's about to have his (professional) ass handed to him. That can lead into him being situated wildly differently in 2399. It's a match made in licensing.

3. It's cheaper to use existing art designs (cough*new ds9*cough*titan*aventine*cough) than building from scratch, especially if you need "a ship for Riker to show up on" or "bajoran/cardassian episode setting." What I mean is that if they decide, for instance, that they want to show Titan, there is literally no good reason whatsoever not to use the Luna class design and call it Luna-class. To do literally anything otherwise, without compelling story reason, would be a deliberate middle finger to Lit fans. Say Picard needs a super-fast space ship that can only be used sometimes, for story reasons? You have it already. All you need is someone to complain "Too bad benamite crystals are so rare, or more ships could use quantum slipstream." That's one line. And you get Nicole deBoer to guest star; It's win-win. Casuals aren't going to fail to understand any of the above just because they haven't read the books. But you know what, it just might make them want to read those books... Hmmm...

4. If you want to use Janeway/O'Brien/Jake or whoever else, fine, just be a little bit hazy in show-continuity on what they might have been up to between 2379 and 2386. Then you have thirteen entire years worth of time in which to tenderize the characters into whatever the show's story requires. There is enough room in there for everything to play nice, if they only care enough. You can even have Seven of Nine, sans implants, and just not mention with great specificity exactly why or how they got removed. That's how they treated Geordi's visor in Star Trek: First Contact. All we saw was that his eyes were different now, and it was left up to interpretation. There's no reason they need to write a line that says "Doctor McCoy came out of retirement and removed my implants in 2381!" which would fuck LitVerse, when the same line can just be "I haven't had implants for some time now..." LESS IS MORE.

5. Not for nothing, but the show could do whatever they wanted astro-politically... Hobus and Romulus could have galactic balance-of-power-altering ramifications, in other words, a convenient built in excuse from how things got from "Typhon Pact detente/maybe cold-war" to whatever space governments are supposed to be frenemies in the future Picard series. That's enough time even for something unlikely, like the Cardassians getting belligerent again, for example.

What is it Cameron Mitchell says in SG1's 200th episode? "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment." Or as Quincy Taggart says, "Never give up. Never surrender."

That's my feeling as well, they really can have it both ways. And they really don't need to read 15 years worth of books. That's what Memory Beta is for. Seriously. You want to know what Picard has been up to in the novel verse since Nemesis. A summary is right there. There are links to other things as well if you want a bit more detail on something. But you can absolutely write compelling, original stories without dumping 15 years of literature.

And I think a lot can be done with Picard-Rene stories, since Rene will be a teenager by then. Maybe with the right actor and compelling writing it could be a good way to bring younger people to the show as well. There's a lot of potential there if they want to use it.

 

[chrinFinity]

And I think a lot can be done with Picard-Rene stories, since Rene will be a teenager by then. Maybe with the right actor and compelling writing it could be a good way to bring younger people to the show as well. There's a lot of potential there if they want to use it.

SHUT UP WESLEY!

 

[Deano2099]

When an author signs a contract to begin writing a novel, it's dated. Novel being written counts as "development."

So Pocket could sign up three years worth of litverse stuff right now and be fine then for the next three years?

This has happened before. Pocket had a novel continuity going on in the 1980s until TNG came along and Roddenberry forced them to erase their novel continuity, and that was with a show set a century later. This show is only twenty years after Nemesis. Make even less sense to keep the novel continuity.

This isn't unprecedented at all. Doctor Who has had its novel continuity abandoned twice, once due to change in publishers, the other time because of the show's return to TV. There's the infamous erasure of the Star Wars EU a few years back. There is noting unique to Star Trek that will exempt it from getting a similar treatment.

You are right that it's happened before, but not every contract is the same. There's nothing unique to Star Trek but there could be something unique to the contract Pocket have. That could have been part of the renegotiation. The presence of new Trek on screen massively changes what that license even is, and what it's worth.

For me the biggest piece of evidence is that after all this, they've commissioned another litverse book. If Pocket genuinely thought the line was going to be done when this new series hits, why bother? Why not make a book set back during the series to ensure it stays relevant? Why flog the horse they know will be dead soon?

Just because it worked one way before, doesn't mean it will always work that way. The world is different now. With ebooks, old books need never become inaccessible or go away. People are capable of dealing with multiple continuities (see Game of Thrones or Marvel and the film universe) and even the ways TV shows are made is different - the Picard series may just be one of a few ideas that hit screens over the next few years. And there's not a Roddenberry this time around either. No-one person or even group seems to be "in charge" of these shows. They're mostly independent productions. Maybe they just care less about exactly how closely tie-in novels tie-in. Maybe they'd even prefer the current book line to books attempting to tell stories they might want to tell themselves at some point.

Nothing you are saying is wrong, historically things have worked that way. But the world moves on. There's some evidence to indicate something a bit different has happened here.

 

[Stevil2001]

3. It's cheaper to use existing art designs (cough*new ds9*cough*titan*aventine*cough) than building from scratch, especially if you need "a ship for Riker to show up on" or "bajoran/cardassian episode setting." What I mean is that if they decide, for instance, that they want to show Titan, there is literally no good reason whatsoever not to use the Luna class design and call it Luna-class. To do literally anything otherwise, without compelling story reason, would be a deliberate middle finger to Lit fans.

I don't mean to be mean, but have you been paying attention at all? CBS Studios hasn't even been "respecting" canonical starship designs. It's hardly a "deliberate middle finger to Lit fans" if they decide to not abide by a starship design from half a dozen book covers.

 

[JD]

Well, it's a single trilogy not an ongoing series like the Novelverse was. That was my point, I did mention the possibility of some books (ie a few, no ongoing effort) dealing with what happened after Nemesis,

Actually a whole bunch of books and comics set between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens have been released since Disney reset it's canon. Along with a ton of stuff set in the original trilogy and prequel eras. They've been regularly releasing stuff in the new continuity since before TFA came out.

It just seems like there's so much opportunity to play nice. Look at how LitVerse could play into the show:

1. Show's dialogue can just treat Data as dead without conflicting, because it's supposed to be a huge secret (for his protection) that he's alive, and other characters can still look at photos and miss him. It works on both levels.

2. Picard's done some shady shit and the writing on the wall in LitVerse is that he's about to have his (professional) ass handed to him. That can lead into him being situated wildly differently in 2399. It's a match made in licensing.

3. It's cheaper to use existing art designs (cough*new ds9*cough*titan*aventine*cough) than building from scratch, especially if you need "a ship for Riker to show up on" or "bajoran/cardassian episode setting." What I mean is that if they decide, for instance, that they want to show Titan, there is literally no good reason whatsoever not to use the Luna class design and call it Luna-class. To do literally anything otherwise, without compelling story reason, would be a deliberate middle finger to Lit fans. Say Picard needs a super-fast space ship that can only be used sometimes, for story reasons? You have it already. All you need is someone to complain "Too bad benamite crystals are so rare, or more ships could use quantum slipstream." That's one line. And you get Nicole deBoer to guest star; It's win-win. Casuals aren't going to fail to understand any of the above just because they haven't read the books. But you know what, it just might make them want to read those books... Hmmm...

4. If you want to use Janeway/O'Brien/Jake or whoever else, fine, just be a little bit hazy in show-continuity on what they might have been up to between 2379 and 2386. Then you have thirteen entire years worth of time in which to tenderize the characters into whatever the show's story requires. There is enough room in there for everything to play nice, if they only care enough. You can even have Seven of Nine, sans implants, and just not mention with great specificity exactly why or how they got removed. That's how they treated Geordi's visor in Star Trek: First Contact. All we saw was that his eyes were different now, and it was left up to interpretation. There's no reason they need to write a line that says "Doctor McCoy came out of retirement and removed my implants in 2381!" which would fuck LitVerse, when the same line can just be "I haven't had implants for some time now..." or even just nothing. "I understand you are a former Borg. / That is correct." LESS IS MORE.

5. Not for nothing, but the show could do whatever they wanted astro-politically... Hobus and Romulus could have galactic balance-of-power-altering ramifications, in other words, a convenient built in excuse from how things got from "Typhon Pact detente/maybe cold-war" to whatever space governments are supposed to be frenemies in the future Picard series. That's enough time even for something unlikely, like the Cardassians getting belligerent again, for example.

What is it Cameron Mitchell says in SG1's 200th episode? "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment." Or as Quincy Taggart says, "Never give up. Never surrender."

As much as I want this to happen, we need to recognize that there's very little chance of it happening.

So Pocket could sign up three years worth of litverse stuff right now and be fine then for the next three years?

For me the biggest piece of evidence is that after all this, they've commissioned another litverse book. If Pocket genuinely thought the line was going to be done when this new series hits, why bother? Why not make a book set back during the series to ensure it stays relevant? Why flog the horse they know will be dead soon?

It'll probably be years before the new Picard show actually airs, so they might as take advantage of the time they have left. They've just started development of the show, so at this point the people making it probably don't even know what exactly the show will be beyond the broad strokes. There's no point stopping the Novelverse, until they know for a fact they will have to stop. There's still a very tiny chance that what @chrinFinity posted above could actually come to pass, so they might as well wait and see before making a decision.

Just because it worked one way before, doesn't mean it will always work that way. The world is different now. With ebooks, old books need never become inaccessible or go away.

I have never once heard of books being pulled after a reboot or something that contradicted them was releases. Del Rey still reprints Legends Star Wars books, Pocket still sells ebooks of Federation, The Final Reflection, and Starfleet Year One, and DC still reprints pre-New 52 comics.

People are capable of dealing with multiple continuities (see Game of Thrones or Marvel and the film universe) and even the ways TV shows are made is different - the Picard series may just be one of a few ideas that hit screens over the next few years.

Sure, but CBS still might want to avoid confusion.

And there's not a Roddenberry this time around either. No-one person or even group seems to be "in charge" of these shows. They're mostly independent productions. Maybe they just care less about exactly how closely tie-in novels tie-in. Maybe they'd even prefer the current book line to books attempting to tell stories they might want to tell themselves at some point.

Yes there is, Alex Kurtzman was put in charge of Discovery and all of CBS's future Trek shows. He's basically the Kevin Feige of TV Trek now.

 

[chrinFinity]

I don't mean to be mean, but have you been paying attention at all? CBS Studios hasn't even been "respecting" canonical starship designs. It's hardly a "deliberate middle finger to Lit fans" if they decide to not abide by a starship design from half a dozen book covers.

Nah I think they're going to retcon the "25% different" Enterprise by having it be damaged and need fixing, or some time travel or alternate reality shenanigans. That's why I think they made it different on purpose. Season 2 is going to be about cleaning up nonsense.

 

[Damian]

SHUT UP WESLEY!

Ok. Were they to incorporate Rene he has to be Wesley's polar opposite as a teen. Maybe a degenerative drug addict who needs dad to show him some tough love or something.

 

[Greg Cox]

But that's just me. I'm aware enough to realize in this day and age what sells is continuously resetting old franchises, ignoring what came before..

To be fair, this is hardly some pernicious new trend. Hollywood has been rebooting popular characters and series since forever. How many times has Tarzan been rebooted, not to mention Topper or Zorro or the Mummy or Godzilla?

The more things change . . .

 

[Damian]

To be fair, this is hardly some pernicious new trend. Hollywood has been rebooting popular characters and series since forever. How many times has Tarzan been rebooted, not to mention Topper or Zorro or the Mummy or Godzilla?

The more things change . . .

True. It just seems to be more frequent these days and happens with more regularity. And Star Trek was somewhat insulated from that in the past. Even the Abramsverse movies were still sequels of a sort to all that came before.
And yes, as Christopher would say I got spoiled by a largely intact storyline through the 18 Berman years and even into the Abrams years. Discovery takes great pains to say they too are part of that same continuity (production design aside, they say storywise it should fit the timeframe between Enterprise and the original series), allows the relaunches to continue and maybe even enhance the relaunch novels in the future.

One thing I would say is all you authors should take it as a compliment in the sense that a lot of us here care enough about the books you all write that we are afraid of them being dismantled by the next TNG show. I know I myself have become rather attached to the ongoing storyline and the characters portrayed in all the relaunches, Enterprise and Voyager included, that I'd hate to see all that undone.

It's great they'll be a new TNG show. I came to really enjoy the show after a shaky first year or so. I personally hope that they find a way to do it that tells enjoyable, original stories in such a way that previous continuities (whether they be the novels or the STO) are still possible, allows the storylines to continue and maybe even enhance future stories in the books.

 

[David cgc]

I don't mean to be mean, but have you been paying attention at all? CBS Studios hasn't even been "respecting" canonical starship designs. It's hardly a "deliberate middle finger to Lit fans" if they decide to not abide by a starship design from half a dozen book covers.

I think Sean's Titan has a good shot at appearing on-screen. Stipulating that anything is going to look the same, ship-wise (which, as you say, is no longer a given), then I'd say that if only one thing were going to be pulled from non-canon-but-official Trek, it'd be the Titan design. It's not just a half-dozen book covers. It's an already-canonical ship with a known captain (so it's got that over the Aventine or the Sagittarius), the contest was decently well-publicized at the time, and the design has appeared in other tie-ins, like STO, one of those traveling science-museum tie-in exhibits, that Borg comic, and the Eaglemoss ships collection. It's always hard to guess what percolates into casual fandom, but I've gotten the impression that people who don't care about the novels but do care about ships know Sean's Titan as the Titan.

 

[chrinFinity]

...it'd be the Titan design. It's not just a half-dozen book covers. It's an already-canonical ship with a known captain (so it's got that over the Aventine or the Sagittarius), the contest was decently well-publicized at the time, and the design has appeared in other tie-ins, like STO, one of those traveling science-museum tie-in exhibits, that Borg comic, and the Eaglemoss ships collection...

Aventine's Vesta-class design has also appeared in STO and in the Eaglemoss collection. The figures for Aventine and Titan also both had the same (equivalent) limited run, if memory serves.

 

[Relayer1]

But some of us want it to end and restart - so it is impossible to please everyone.

I thought this about the Star Wars novels. I'm old enough to have purchased Splinter of the Mind's Eye when it came out, got the Solo and Lando books and eventually reconnected when the Zahn books restarted things. I eventually lost interest during the Vong war.

I was sure when they announced the sequels and reset the E.U. that it was a great opportunity, hoped the new books would be fewer and better quality and I'd start reading them again.

I haven't read a single new SW novel. I suspect Treklit may be the same...

 

[JoeZhang]

I

I haven't read a single new SW novel. I suspect Treklit may be the same...

I'm the other way - I didn't read the SW novels, I thought they looked impenetrable but have read a couple of the new ones.

Plus to an extent this overwrite has always happened in Trek - one of my favourite books 'The Final Reflection' was overwritten by TNG - it's still one of my favourite books.

The Rihannsu trilogy is much loved by older fans and still is but that's incompatible with TNG as well.