"New" miniatures of "old" ships...

[Maurice]

I agree completely, but that is the "Berman touch" for you.

For example, Berman disliked all of that exciting and dynamic TOS music which is why he elected to use a droning, ambiguous Trek MUZAK which certainly made sure not to offend (or interest) anyone with any originality or creativity. Conversely, for TOS, Roddenberry reportedly told Courage "Make it sound like Captain Blood" (Great reference by the way on Spock telling Norman about the flowers!)

Another thing that adds to the fakery you refer to is that Berman never utilized any of the wonderful cinematic techniques which created the look of TOS. Cinematography is VITAL in film. It conveys emotional perspective. Berman employed mostly medium shots, and squeaky clean effects visuals. Mix that up with some flat 2 dimensional characters motivated by whiny, self obsessed, 1980's style storylines and you have Berman Trek. It was a different generation. Most of the guys who worked on TOS had been to war and were living in a turbulent, fascinating, ultra creative time in history compared to the 1980's generation. The "me" decade.

Speaking of those guys, I remember one of the producers of the original Planet of the Apes pointing out that you when you do science fiction you can't introduce too many science fiction ideas at once or you will destroy believability.

Following that, and your comment, I submit that TOS was so successful because it grounded itself in all of those aforementioned techniques. Music, cinematography, and riveting stories. All of those factors made the viewer invest emotionally which encouraged believability and distracted them from any ludicrous science fiction that may have been going on. Therefore, it acheived a wonderful balance.

Wow, that felt good. Thanks guys!

Double spaced paragraph breaks feel even better.

 

[spockboy]

I agree completely, but that is the "Berman touch" for you.

For example, Berman disliked all of that exciting and dynamic TOS music which is why he elected to use a droning, ambiguous Trek MUZAK which certainly made sure not to offend (or interest) anyone with any originality or creativity. Conversely, for TOS, Roddenberry reportedly told Courage "Make it sound like Captain Blood" (Great reference by the way on Spock telling Norman about the flowers!)

Another thing that adds to the fakery you refer to is that Berman never utilized any of the wonderful cinematic techniques which created the look of TOS. Cinematography is VITAL in film. It conveys emotional perspective. Berman employed mostly medium shots, and squeaky clean effects visuals. Mix that up with some flat 2 dimensional characters motivated by whiny, self obsessed, 1980's style storylines and you have Berman Trek. It was a different generation. Most of the guys who worked on TOS had been to war and were living in a turbulent, fascinating, ultra creative time in history compared to the 1980's generation. The "me" decade.

Speaking of those guys, I remember one of the producers of the original Planet of the Apes pointing out that you when you do science fiction you can't introduce too many science fiction ideas at once or you will destroy believability.

Following that, and your comment, I submit that TOS was so successful because it grounded itself in all of those aforementioned techniques. Music, cinematography, and riveting stories. All of those factors made the viewer invest emotionally which encouraged believability and distracted them from any ludicrous science fiction that may have been going on. Therefore, it acheived a wonderful balance.

Wow, that felt good. Thanks guys!

Double spaced paragraph breaks feel even better.

Wow!


You are absolutely right!


They do.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

For example, Berman disliked all of that exciting and dynamic TOS music which is why he elected to use a droning, ambiguous Trek MUZAK which certainly made sure not to offend (or interest) anyone with any originality or creativity. Conversely, for TOS, Roddenberry reportedly told Courage "Make it sound like Captain Blood" (Great reference by the way on Spock telling Norman about the flowers!)

You are not kidding. To this day, after 1st run and reruns, it is not easy to recall music written for TNG. That lack of a musical "character" supporting the narrative rendered many episodes sterile, and free of a sense of strong drama. then again, the drama had to be in the script before one note was written, so that suggests....

Mix that up with some flat 2 dimensional characters motivated by whiny, self obsessed, 1980's style storylines and you have Berman Trek. It was a different generation. Most of the guys who worked on TOS had been to war and were living in a turbulent, fascinating, ultra creative time in history compared to the 1980's generation. The "me" decade.

I remember that criticism among some circles of fans during the early years of the TNG: some of the writers--lacking an understanding of just how brutal/serious the world can be, could not bring that feel to TNG's universe. Often, is was much talk and not much else.

Speaking of those guys, I remember one of the producers of the original Planet of the Apes pointing out that you when you do science fiction you can't introduce too many science fiction ideas at once or you will destroy believability. Following that, and your comment, I submit that TOS was so successful because it grounded itself in all of those aforementioned techniques. Music, cinematography, and riveting stories. All of those factors made the viewer invest emotionally which encouraged believability and distracted them from any ludicrous science fiction that may have been going on. Therefore, it acheived a wonderful balance.

Wow, that felt good. Thanks guys!

No, thank you!

 

[plynch]

After showing Mr. Smith Goes to Washington in civics four hours a day, I was marvelling at the framing, photography, lighting, etc. therein. Composition, I think you would call it.

Not that movies don't achieve wonderful things today. "Gravity," and many others. The older movies seem more "painterly": like formal/planned, if that makes any sense. Coming outa the theater tradition?

 

[publiusr]

12 Angry Men never re-used a single camera location/shot, or so it is said.

 

[plynch]

I can believe it. And if I recall, as the movie progresses the camera shoots from lower and lower as they get angrier and sweatier. Or vice versa. I would let you know, but that film is only a maybe in my civics course. The other fo sho is . . . Gideon's Trumpet, made for tv with Henry Fonda. MAYbe with Harve Bennet as producer. Or else that's The Day After (US History, no longer my course).

 

[spockboy]

 

[Maurice]

12 Angry Men never re-used a single camera location/shot, or so it is said.

Hardly surprising, actually. All but 3 minutes of the film takes place in that one room and would become really static is they hadn't varied the camera setups throughout.

If there ever was such a technically flawless film, then this is it. Boris Kaufman's dazzling cinematography, with its prolonged takes and constant close-ups, makes a particularly astute way of using the black and white to strengthen the growth of the plot. You will notice that, at the beginning of the film, eleven out of the twelve men are wearing dark costumes [mainly suits], save for Juror #8, who wears a light summer suit which is most likely much more appropriate for the time the film is set in. As the film progresses and Juror #8 convinces the rest of the jury, it is clearly visible that each of them takes off their dark jackets to reveal light shirts underneath. The concept of using tone to hint at a light [as in good, open-minded / narrow-minded, dark and evil] is further on backed up when the majority vote leaps from guilty to not guilty. At this precise moment, a thunderstorm begins outside and it becomes much darker, forcing them to turn on the lights inside. So at this point the jury room and those inside it have become lighter than the ones outside. The idea continues at the end of the film, as it culminates with all of them wearing light colours, and as they leave the courtroom they can be seen carrying their jackets instead of wearing them, as though they've left their prejudices behind. This is an extraordinary piece of symbolism that is put to great effect in the film and helps to fortify it even more.

Source

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I remember a few years back, driving past my old high school, seeing a sign out front advertising a theatrical production of Twelve Angry Men.

Naturally, the ignorant administrative poltroons chose to call it Twelve Angry Persons.

 

[J.T.B.]

I remember a few years back, driving past my old high school, seeing a sign out front advertising a theatrical production of Twelve Angry Men.

Naturally, the ignorant administrative poltroons chose to call it Twelve Angry Persons.

So they can cast females. I have seen "Twelve Angry Jurors" used, which sounds a little better.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I remember a few years back, driving past my old high school, seeing a sign out front advertising a theatrical production of Twelve Angry Men.

Naturally, the ignorant administrative poltroons chose to call it Twelve Angry Persons.

So they can cast females. I have seen "Twelve Angry Jurors" used, which sounds a little better.

Well, yeah...I can see where a high school drama club wouldn't want to throw the girls to the winds, but I'd rather see them choose another play altogether. It's just I'm always leery of "revisionism", even though this is a pretty insignificant example of it.

 

[J.T.B.]

Well, yeah...I can see where a high school drama club wouldn't want to throw the girls to the winds, but I'd rather see them choose another play altogether.

Well, the publishers are apparently OK with "Twelve Angry Jurors":
http://www.dramaticpublishing.com/p1602/Twelve-Angry-Men/product_info.html

...so I don't see any good reason to avoid performing the play just because of the gender mix of the cast.

 

[Forbin]

I'd like to see "Twelve Angry Klingons".

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Twelve Angry Tellarites might be fun, too!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Naturally, the ignorant administrative poltroons chose to call it Twelve Angry Persons.

Are you joking?

 

[Green Shirt]

poltroons

I need to look up this word.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Naturally, the ignorant administrative poltroons chose to call it Twelve Angry Persons.

Are you joking?

Nope. As J.T.B. above mentions Twelve Angry Jurors, that's one thing. Why they include girls in the play, then use the gender-neutral 'persons' is unfathomable to me. Twelve Angry Persons could be a play about twelve people in a grocery line, with a first-day cashier on the job.

poltroons

I need to look up this word.

It's a good word!

Now, if I could only think of a way to cleverly segue back to the thread topic...hmm, twelve...yes, that's it! The DS9 model of the Enterprise, which was one of twelve starships in the fleet!

 

[plynch]

Twele Angry Men, of course has much better rhythm, as a title.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Why not Twelve Angry People? Did "people" somehow become politically incorrect?

 

[spockboy]

12 Angry Men never re-used a single camera location/shot, or so it is said.

Hardly surprising, actually. All but 3 minutes of the film takes place in that one room and would become really static is they hadn't varied the camera setups throughout.

If there ever was such a technically flawless film, then this is it. Boris Kaufman's dazzling cinematography, with its prolonged takes and constant close-ups, makes a particularly astute way of using the black and white to strengthen the growth of the plot. You will notice that, at the beginning of the film, eleven out of the twelve men are wearing dark costumes [mainly suits], save for Juror #8, who wears a light summer suit which is most likely much more appropriate for the time the film is set in. As the film progresses and Juror #8 convinces the rest of the jury, it is clearly visible that each of them takes off their dark jackets to reveal light shirts underneath. The concept of using tone to hint at a light [as in good, open-minded / narrow-minded, dark and evil] is further on backed up when the majority vote leaps from guilty to not guilty. At this precise moment, a thunderstorm begins outside and it becomes much darker, forcing them to turn on the lights inside. So at this point the jury room and those inside it have become lighter than the ones outside. The idea continues at the end of the film, as it culminates with all of them wearing light colours, and as they leave the courtroom they can be seen carrying their jackets instead of wearing them, as though they've left their prejudices behind. This is an extraordinary piece of symbolism that is put to great effect in the film and helps to fortify it even more.

Source

Beautifully put!
I will rewatch it.