Be careful though, you can only keep it pent up for so long. Then it's oops, sorry.
New Enterprise May Have Nacelles That...
- Thread starter STARTREK11
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Number666 said:
Zuni Fetish Doll said:
Don't do it, STAR TREK11!!!
Keep your finger in that dyke for as long as you can!
Or at least 'til her thighs turn to Jell-o.
God, I want this exchange as a sig-line.
PKTrekGirl said:
Number666 said:
Zuni Fetish Doll said:
Don't do it, STAR TREK11!!!
Keep your finger in that dyke for as long as you can!
Or at least 'til her thighs turn to Jell-o.
God, I want this exchange as a sig-line.
You have my blessing. :thumbsup:
I think he means the bussard collectors. The turned pretty rapidly. :thumbsup:
You may be correct in that present technology is limited but in the 23rd century these difficulties have been overcome with more advanced techniques and materiels.
The shock absorption is related in how much the object can move/deform with the shock wave.
such that v squared= 2 x acceleration x distance.
or
v squared/2d= acceleration or deceleration.
This is why when you hit a soft ball it will not be damaged or damage the impact surface as it suffers a compression d.
as the the compression due to hardness decreases,d becomes smaller and smaller and the deceleration becomes larger and larger and hence the shock increase as 1/d.
as d tends to zero for harder and harder objects deceleration tends to infinity.
in practical terms this why a metal file is very hard and not bendy and if you drop it on a hard surface will tend to shatter due to the very high g forces as explained above.
In fact the harder you make an object the higher the stress it will experience on impact with a similar hard object.
The nacelle being allowed to move with the shock wave of an explosion allows for reduction of damage due to high g forces as shown by above equation.
Also this shows when you jump with bended knee you will experience less shock then if you kept your legs straight.
Sigh.
Well, this proves it. You have no understanding of mechanics or materials science. I was pretty much convinced before but now... it's beyond dispute.
For anyone really interested... and who has the ability to grasp the concepts being discussed... look up the terms "specific impulse" and the material properties "hardness" versus "toughness." (Just for the record, the reason that a cheap file can shatter has NOTHING to do with higher "g-forces." It has everything to do with the material having a high Rockwell hardness value and a relatively low toughness value.)
As for mechanism design, as I tried to point out above, no matter WHAT material you use ("unobtainium" or whatever), you still are governed by the laws of physics, and so a rigid attachment is always orders of magnitude stronger than an articulated attachment.
For an example of this, look at the structure of carrier-based aircraft wings. For storage efficiency, these wings are often constructed in a fashion that they can fold up. But they aren't on a permanent "flexy-bendy" joint. When they fold down, they are LOCKED into place, using a fairly complex (and pretty expensive!) set of mechanism. This reduces the total fuel capacity of the aircraft, too... but it's a fair tradeoff for being able to carry more airframes on the carrier.
You will NEVER find any mechanism that is a LOAD-BEARING mechanism... aircraft wings or whatever... that is allowed that sort of flexibility unless it's absolutely impossible for the mechanism to work without it.
One place where this is crucial is in the articulation system for helicopter rotor blades. But these are also a remarkably FRAGILE structure. The Ch-53K has addressed this by placing the entire rotor articulation system inside of huge rubber disk... which is actually a pretty ingenious approach and gives you a lot of PROTECTION for the frame, at the expense of losing a small degree of controllability.
Check it out here. I've been involved in some design in the propulsion system of this aircraft.
http://www.sikorsky.com/file/popup/0,9604,2207,00.pdf
My point? It's a MASSIVE ENGINEERING PROBLEM to deal with any articulated hardware. And unless there's a FUNCTIONAL reason for it to be articulated (which I already argued against in a way that's unimpeachable and which has been ignored by "ST11" here), the costs of articulation in terms of mechanical robustness are just way too high.
I'm not 100% convinced that this isn't going to be what we see on film, only because I have VERY little faith in Hollywood. But if it WERE done, it would be utter, abject IDIOCY. Both from a technical standpoint (as I've argued above) and from an artistic standpoint.
This reads simply as something that some fanboy came up with, under the misconception that the warp nacelles were actually "rocketship engines."
I'm just waiting for "ST11" to step up and tell us his supposed "plot point." I'm anxious to call a few friends and have them look it over and decide if someone needs a good firin' or not.
Cary, you need to stop being a wet blanket by fighting rumors of fanboy kewlness with reason.
Think about it! Sure, it would be a huge, complex, debilitating hinge joint...but on the other hand, it spins around like a propeller blade when it is hit by enemy weapons fire. Now, when you're in the middle of getting blown up real good, at least your ship has turned into an amusing oversized mobile. KEWL!
Think about it! Sure, it would be a huge, complex, debilitating hinge joint...but on the other hand, it spins around like a propeller blade when it is hit by enemy weapons fire. Now, when you're in the middle of getting blown up real good, at least your ship has turned into an amusing oversized mobile. KEWL!
Cary L. Brown said:
Sigh.
Well, this proves it. You have no understanding of mechanics or materials science. I was pretty much convinced before but now... it's beyond dispute.
For anyone really interested... and who has the ability to grasp the concepts being discussed... look up the terms "specific impulse" and the material properties "hardness" versus "toughness." (Just for the record, the reason that a cheap file can shatter has NOTHING to do with higher "g-forces." It has everything to do with the material having a high Rockwell hardness value and a relatively low toughness value.)
As for mechanism design, as I tried to point out above, no matter WHAT material you use ("unobtainium" or whatever), you still are governed by the laws of physics, and so a rigid attachment is always orders of magnitude stronger than an articulated attachment.
For an example of this, look at the structure of carrier-based aircraft wings. For storage efficiency, these wings are often constructed in a fashion that they can fold up. But they aren't on a permanent "flexy-bendy" joint. When they fold down, they are LOCKED into place, using a fairly complex (and pretty expensive!) set of mechanism. This reduces the total fuel capacity of the aircraft, too... but it's a fair tradeoff for being able to carry more airframes on the carrier.
You will NEVER find any mechanism that is a LOAD-BEARING mechanism... aircraft wings or whatever... that is allowed that sort of flexibility unless it's absolutely impossible for the mechanism to work without it.
One place where this is crucial is in the articulation system for helicopter rotor blades. But these are also a remarkably FRAGILE structure. The Ch-53K has addressed this by placing the entire rotor articulation system inside of huge rubber disk... which is actually a pretty ingenious approach and gives you a lot of PROTECTION for the frame, at the expense of losing a small degree of controllability.
Check it out here. I've been involved in some design in the propulsion system of this aircraft.
http://www.sikorsky.com/file/popup/0,9604,2207,00.pdf
My point? It's a MASSIVE ENGINEERING PROBLEM to deal with any articulated hardware. And unless there's a FUNCTIONAL reason for it to be articulated (which I already argued against in a way that's unimpeachable and which has been ignored by "ST11" here), the costs of articulation in terms of mechanical robustness are just way too high.
I'm not 100% convinced that this isn't going to be what we see on film, only because I have VERY little faith in Hollywood. But if it WERE done, it would be utter, abject IDIOCY. Both from a technical standpoint (as I've argued above) and from an artistic standpoint.
This reads simply as something that some fanboy came up with, under the misconception that the warp nacelles were actually "rocketship engines."
I'm just waiting for "ST11" to step up and tell us his supposed "plot point." I'm anxious to call a few friends and have them look it over and decide if someone needs a good firin' or not.
The equation I quoted is a fundamental one and it determines
behaviour of all objects experiencing any movement regardless of material construction.
If you banged your head against a solid ,hard wall you would get broken bones as compared to if you banged your head against a cushion as the stresses are spread out over time,namely the deceleration is less as it happens over a larger distance.
Can you not see that?
You comments about aircraft having folded wings makes no sense as all they had to do is do is park every ALTERNATE aircraft on a ramp such that the wings stack/slide over each
each adjacent plane's wings.Using this method you would get higher aircraft density,then with folding wings.
This must be military intelligence in action having planes with folding wings.Totally unnecessary.
/////// -----0----- -----0----- -----0-----
/-----0----- -----0----- -----0----- -----0-----
A front view ascii view of parked aircraft without needing folding.The aircraft on the top line are parked at an elevated height on a suitable box/frame such that the wings are stacked as above.
A ramp would lead to this elevated parking place.
An angled ramp leads to the elevated box/frame for each alternate aircraft as in above ascii diagram.I could not get a proper angle due to limitations of text ascii,but you should be able to understand the concept.
Further you fail to explain if rotating nacelles are so impossible why is the neck of the Enterprise so thin?
Why don't the struts which support the nacelles bend?
Why do swing wing supersonic planes work and don't fly apart if these joints are so delicate?
By your own admission helicopters work despite the gimbals and joins.
I will reveal the plot point in my next post within 48 hours as I am awaiting confirmation just to be sure.
Guys, guys... either STARTREK11 is deluded, or he is playing you. In either case, you are playing right into his hands. All this talk about acceleration and stresses and physics is, I'm guessing, precisely what he wants... rather than try to prove to him that his ridiculous idea is ridiculous and in fact impossible, just ignore him. I don't mean put him on ignore which would mean missing out on some great comedy (whether intentional or madness-driven), but simply accept his posts for what they are... either trolling for arguments or the ravings of a deluded fan.
If there is any basis in fact for his OP, it is his misunderstanding of what his source meant by "rotating." Obviously, obviously the source was referring to the spinning lights in the nacelle caps.
If there is any basis in fact for his OP, it is his misunderstanding of what his source meant by "rotating." Obviously, obviously the source was referring to the spinning lights in the nacelle caps.
The folding wings are a much more sensible solution than stacking them on a ramp over each other (
) and I think you know that. It would only take the ship to move slightly on choppy seas and planes stacked wing over wing would be causing damage to each other. Plus the folding wings make manoeuvring on hanger deck lifts easier. They wouldn't have come up with the idea if fixed wing planes could do the same thing - they already had fixed wing planes. What's that got to do with.. well, anything that he discussed? I don't see a rotating joint on the E's neck, do you? And the struts don't bend because the nacelles weigh nothing in space, so there's no downward bending force, and in ST-universe the inertial dampeners protect them from forward moving forces due to high speed. They are weaker being placed away from the ship, but this conveys a safety advantage to havign them in the ships main body, so compensates for the loss. This is engineering - if you're gonna have a weakness in your design it'd better have a damn good reason for being there. And rotating nacelles don't.
did you even read the part of his post about the frames they have to put on to support the folding joints? And swing wings hardly 'rotate' - they move exactly in the way the forces of the air rushing over them want to push them.
An example where the weakness of the rotation is worked aroudn in order to achieve a useful feature. If we could do the same functions as a helicopter without rotating joints, we would. The E doesn't need rotating engines at all, so there's no gain in adding the extra weakness.
A
Amaris
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Contain small parts and may represent a choking hazard for children under 3 years of age.
J.
New Enterprise May Have Nacelles That may cause dizziness, drowsiness, rashes and diarrhea. Don't take Nacelles if you are pregnant or are on certain pain medications. Don't use Nacelles with alcohol.
My inside source say the glowing parts of the nacelles look just like nipples. Joel Schumacher has secretly replaced JJ Abrams as the director.
All New!!!
Pimp-Nacelles for your Constitution Class StarShip:
Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to Pimp-Nacelles.
Caution: Pimp-Nacelles may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
Pimp-Nacelles Contain a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Do not use Pimp-Nacelles while in the solar system.
Discontinue use of Pimp-Nacelles if any of the following occurs:
Itching
Vertigo
Dizziness
Tingling in extremities
Loss of balance or coordination
Slurred speech
Temporary blindness
Profuse sweating
Heart palpitations
If Pimp-Nacelles begin to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head. They are NOT rocket engines.
Pimp-Nacelles may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, Pimp-Nacelles should be rotated, folded, returned to their special containment field and kept at absolute Zero under refrigeration...
Failure to do so relieves the makers of Pimp-Nacelles, Section 31, and its parent company ***REDACTED***, of any and all liability.
Ingredients of Pimp-Nacelles include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outside another Galaxy, far, far away.
Pimp-Nacelles were shipped to our troops on the Dominion Front Lines and are also being ejected by our Starships in Romulan Space.
Do not taunt Pimp-Nacelles.
Pimp-Nacelles comes with a lifetime guarantee.*
*Guaranteed to Shorten your live.
Pimp-Nacelles for your Constitution Class StarShip:
Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to Pimp-Nacelles.
Caution: Pimp-Nacelles may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
Pimp-Nacelles Contain a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Do not use Pimp-Nacelles while in the solar system.
Discontinue use of Pimp-Nacelles if any of the following occurs:
Itching
Vertigo
Dizziness
Tingling in extremities
Loss of balance or coordination
Slurred speech
Temporary blindness
Profuse sweating
Heart palpitations
If Pimp-Nacelles begin to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head. They are NOT rocket engines.
Pimp-Nacelles may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, Pimp-Nacelles should be rotated, folded, returned to their special containment field and kept at absolute Zero under refrigeration...
Failure to do so relieves the makers of Pimp-Nacelles, Section 31, and its parent company ***REDACTED***, of any and all liability.
Ingredients of Pimp-Nacelles include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outside another Galaxy, far, far away.
Pimp-Nacelles were shipped to our troops on the Dominion Front Lines and are also being ejected by our Starships in Romulan Space.
Do not taunt Pimp-Nacelles.
Pimp-Nacelles comes with a lifetime guarantee.*
*Guaranteed to Shorten your live.
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