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"Nero changed everything" -- why?

WarpFactorZ

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
A common response to "Why is X different in the Abramsverse?" is the uncreative retort "Because of Nero." This is used to explain the most obvious (why the timeline is different), but is also a catch-all for a number of other things:

- why tech is so advanced ("They scanned Nero's vessel")
- why alien races are encountered at different times ("Nero caused more exploration")
- why starships are 20 times as large as in TOS ("Nero's threat prompted them build big")

I say most of these are bunk. How many times has the Enterprise or another vessel encountered a significantly-advanced technology or civilization that threatened the Federation? The Doomsday Macine, V'ger, the Whale Probe, the giant amoeba, etc.... Did this force Starfleet to militarize? Did this force them to build bigger, more imposing ships?
 
Well if you had one of the Federation's best ships, and then a fleet, one-sided 'pnwned by one starship of course you'd be paranoid and looking for advantages to defend yourself! Especially since said one starship spent most of its time being looked at by your enemies.

There's more to just the things you mentioned though. Why do the Klingons look different? Why do the Gorn? Why has Praxis exploded and why xyz? "Because of Nero" seemed like a good enough hand-wave to justify all these things.

Personally I think red matter traveling through time did more damage to the timeline than Nero appearing in 2233. Like how Q's anomaly in All Good Things messed with genetic development on earth, Red Matter might have caused subtle shifts in important places for things to change and happen differently.

Red Matter after all was an unknown quality even at the time of its creation.
 
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I would argue that Federation technology should have advanced more as a result of reverse-engineering alien technology than it did in the previous shows and films. Prior Trek was too restricted by the producers' desire to maintain the status quo; the new movies are freed from that artificial constraint, since the goal is the opposite. If anything, this version is more plausible than having a ton of revolutionary technological breakthroughs that are never mentioned again, like Genesis and soliton waves and quick-cloning and ways to preserve the mind after death. (Although we did see the occasional Primeverse discovery that had an ongoing impact, like the Doctor's mobile emitter, itself a future technology. ENT implied that Starfleet obtained photonic torpedoes from the Vissians. And the novels have shown quantum slipstream drive, a technology of Delta Quadrant origin, coming into more or less regular use by the Federation.)

And I would submit that V'Ger may indeed have pushed Starfleet to become more military. They certainly seemed more military in TWOK through TUC than they had in TOS, TAS, or TMP. And by TSFS, they were building a bigger, more imposing ship, the Excelsior. We also know that nearly a century later, the Borg threat prompted Starfleet to build up its ship numbers considerably and develop new, more combat-geared ship classes like the Defiant and perhaps the Sovereign, and that the peaceful, exploration-focused Starfleet of early TNG gradually developed into a more combat-oriented body in response to the threats of the Romulans, Borg, Klingons, and Dominion. And since we never heard of Section 31 until late in DS9, it seems plausible that they increased their activities in response to the Dominion threat.

I also question the assumption that bigger ships would be more military-oriented ships. If anything, I'd think that you'd want combat ships to be more compact so they're more efficient and don't present as large a target. Maybe the technological advancement just allowed Starfleet to build bigger and more powerful ships for exploration or colony-support purposes, just as their ships are bigger in the 24th century. I mean, the Galaxy class is the largest Starfleet vessel class I'm aware of in the Primeverse, and it was created for long-term exploration first and foremost, and for fighting only as a last resort.

By the same token, the advance in technology would itself explain why alien races were encountered earlier. If ships go faster, they can get to distant planets sooner. So you're not really listing three different things whose causes trace back to Nero's arrival, but only one thing -- the technological advancement resulting from reverse-engineering the Narada's tech -- and two of its direct consequences.

Of course, that leaves the question of why the Starfleet/Federation of 2233 and after would've been so much more motivated to reverse-engineer alien technology than those of later eras in the Primeverse. Maybe it's just a matter of the policies of the people in charge at the time. Maybe the head of Starfleet, or the Federation President, in the 2230s was someone who had a strong desire to push technology forward by studying alien tech, but in the Primeverse they didn't find any alien tech much more advanced than their own, not until after that person's tenure had ended. Maybe later authorities felt that the Federation should apply a sort of Prime Directive to itself and resist advancing its tech too quickly. If you have any doubt about how quickly a nation's policies can change with a change of leadership, compare the George W. Bush administration to the Barack Obama administration.


There's more to just the things you mentioned though. Why do the Klingons look different?

They've looked different many times before. They had a couple of different makeup designs in TOS, then gained one type of ridges in TMP, then a different type of ridges in TSFS, then a subtly different type in TNG and after, then another different type in TVH through TUC. (For instance, in the movies, female Klingons have much smaller and more delicate ridges than males, but in the TV shows, their ridges are just as prominent.) This new variant isn't substantially more different from the past three major Klingon designs than they were from one another, aside from the blue eyes and the piercings.


Why do the Gorn?

We've already seen two different types in "Arena" and "In a Mirror, Darkly." The novels have claimed that the Gorn genetically engineer themselves into different forms.


Why has Praxis exploded...

There's a "classified document" out there as part of the film's viral promotional material implying that Section 31 may have undertaken a "Praxis operation" that might've caused the explosion. Although it could be that the Klingons themselves accelerated their ship production after the Narada trashed dozens of their ships, and that this caused the explosion to come sooner.


Personally I think red matter traveling through time did more damage to the timeline than Nero appearing in 2233. Like how Q's anomaly in All Good Things messed with genetic development on earth, Red Matter might have caused subtle shifts in important places for things to change and happen differently.

Red Matter after all was an unknown quality even at the time of its creation.

Not sure that's necessary, but it's an interesting thought.
 
Saying that the changes are due to Nero is just to please fans that care. Theres not much point considering how Trek technology changes. Star Trek crews used technologies worse than what we have today. If everything in the film looked like the tos series it would look really dated and distract you from the movie.
 
Saying that the changes are due to Nero is just to please fans that care. Theres not much point considering how Trek technology changes. Star Trek crews used technologies worse than what we have today. If everything in the film looked like the tos series it would look really dated and distract you from the movie.

I'm not arguing the look of the tech. As far as I'm concerned, that's what it looked like in TOS as well. Visually, they did an excellent job of updating the look without updating the look, so to speak. I'm certainly not a die-hard cardboard set and glued-on-galaxy-pictures-as-monitors fan.

I'm more irked by the idea that people use Nero as an EXCUSE for why things have changed. It's not needed in some cases (see first paragraph), and it's a stretch in other cases. I just think Nero gets too much "credit" because fans love to have things explained... like why Klingons didn't have ridges, and then did.

Norsehound said:
There's more to just the things you mentioned though. Why do the Klingons look different?

Duh. Because of Nero! ;)
 
*shrug* Nero and my Red matter theory are enough for me to explain why things are different from the prime universe.

If this thread is a remark against those over-obsessive fans who need every little detail explained, I think I can agree with you. Nitpicky fans kind of give Trek the reputation it has, unfortunately.
 
You're not supposed to read so much into it. The writers were very clever in thinking up a way of rebooting the franchise that would keep (generally) everyone happy. Great decision IMO.
 
Strangely enough the Enterprise looks small in comparison to the open shuttle doors scene and looking into the bridge from the outside in ratio to the rest of the ship.
 
Strangely enough the Enterprise looks small in comparison to the open shuttle doors scene and looking into the bridge from the outside in ratio to the rest of the ship.
Off to the "Starship Size Argument" thread with that one. :p
 
why does the advanced technology need an explanation? It's almost 50 years after tos was created. We are more technologically advanced so we can envision being more technologically advanced in the future than they could. To create the most technologically advanced future they could pays homage to the spirit of Star Trek in a way that being hobbled by 1960's era "future" never could. Doing so really would defy everything that trek is about.

not sure I explained that right :lol:
 
why does the advanced technology need an explanation? It's almost 50 years after tos was created. We are more technologically advanced so we can envision being more technologically advanced in the future than they could. To create the most technologically advanced future they could pays homage to the spirit of Star Trek in a way that being hobbled by 1960's era "future" never could. Doing so really would defy everything that trek is about.

not sure I explained that right :lol:

It's my thinking exactly. You can't stay rigidly stuck to the "advancements" of 50 years ago in a show about the future. None of the subsequents shows did, so I have no problem with this.
 
A common response to "Why is X different in the Abramsverse?" is the uncreative retort "Because of Nero." This is used to explain the most obvious (why the timeline is different), but is also a catch-all for a number of other things:

- why tech is so advanced ("They scanned Nero's vessel")
IMO much of the technological change is simply because of real life in 2013 having overtaken TOS' 60's vision of the future. Call it a real-life retcon.

I've heard lots of complaints about fast warp journies and instant communications, but they've all happened before in Trek without any explanation. The writers used the upper end examples of speeds we've seen before (for example TOS, TAS and the classic movies visited the rim of the galaxy twice and the core twice) rather than the already-wrong-at-the-time-of-publication speed tables in The Making of Star Trek and the Star Trek Encyclopedia (AFAIK, only ever ahered to in Voyager)
- why alien races are encountered at different times ("Nero caused more exploration")
IMO those new aliens we've seen were there in TOS, TNG and the rest, but always just off-camera.
- why starships are 20 times as large as in TOS ("Nero's threat prompted them build big")
trip_won.jpg

Seriously, I'd attribute the change (which is actually a downsize between 2233 and 2245-prime, which lasted until the Excelsior-era) to a different leadership at Starfleet... which can be traced back to Nero's arrival. Butterfly effect etc.
I say most of these are bunk. How many times has the Enterprise or another vessel encountered a significantly-advanced technology or civilization that threatened the Federation? The Doomsday Macine, V'ger, the Whale Probe, the giant amoeba, etc.... Did this force Starfleet to militarize? Did this force them to build bigger, more imposing ships?
Perhaps that says more about the leadership of Starfleet in the prime universe than anything in the AU. Or maybe the TMP refit was the answer to those TOS threats, and Excelsior the answer to V'Ger?
 
A common response to "Why is X different in the Abramsverse?" is the uncreative retort "Because of Nero." This is used to explain the most obvious (why the timeline is different), but is also a catch-all for a number of other things:

- why tech is so advanced ("They scanned Nero's vessel")
- why alien races are encountered at different times ("Nero caused more exploration")
- why starships are 20 times as large as in TOS ("Nero's threat prompted them build big")

I say most of these are bunk. How many times has the Enterprise or another vessel encountered a significantly-advanced technology or civilization that threatened the Federation? The Doomsday Macine, V'ger, the Whale Probe, the giant amoeba, etc.... Did this force Starfleet to militarize? Did this force them to build bigger, more imposing ships?

Don't forget that the movie First Contact exposed 21st century humans to Federation technology and design, as well as some knowledge of the future. I think that's a big factor in the changes in Enterprise and in the new movies as well. These changes were not reversed by Nero.
 
Don't forget that the movie First Contact exposed 21st century humans to Federation technology and design, as well as some knowledge of the future. I think that's a big factor in the changes in Enterprise and in the new movies as well. These changes were not reversed by Nero.

No, I think that's a different circumstance. The "advanced" technology post-Nero was attributed to scans of the Narada (warp coil emissions, shield configurations, etc...). It wasn't just because the ship showed up and people saw it.

Cochrane might have been inspired by the look of the Enterprise-E, say, and that influenced his design of the NX-01. But there's no way the tech could "advance" without knowing what's under the hood.
 
Why?

Because we're still pretending it isn't a reboot.

Once you accept that it is a different universe that is written with the occasional wink and a nod to another universe it will all make sense.
 
Cochrane might have been inspired by the look of the Enterprise-E, say, and that influenced his design of the NX-01. But there's no way the tech could "advance" without knowing what's under the hood.

I'm not so sure. If he is working on warp drive and then sees a ship from three-hundred years in the future that is a successful version based on his original theories, he could probably work out quite a bit about field dynamics based on the shape. :techman:
 
No, I think that's a different circumstance. The "advanced" technology post-Nero was attributed to scans of the Narada (warp coil emissions, shield configurations, etc...). It wasn't just because the ship showed up and people saw it.

Cochrane might have been inspired by the look of the Enterprise-E, say, and that influenced his design of the NX-01. But there's no way the tech could "advance" without knowing what's under the hood.

Well they know now that transporters are possible, etc. I think you're underestimating the possible impact of that temporal event.
 
Or perhaps Nero changed nothing. Perhaps NuTrekverse was an alternate universe long before he arrived in it. Or we can continue to play apologist and try to explain away the inconsistencies, whatever makes everyone happy. :p
 
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