Nero altered the timeline = altered the original Trek reality

[Nerys Myk]

Of course everything is open to interpretation - and those making Star Trek are probably the least authoritative to do the interpreting. After all, they're the smallest cogs in the wheel: they come and go, and then others with different ideas take over. Whatever the authors say about Trek gets scattered to the winds or trampled over by other authors unless they actually put it in their work.

i

They are the biggest cog till the new cog comes along. That's how it works. Unlike the fans who are just watching the cogs spin.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

SPOILERS(?)(!).................. For Doctor Who(!)

This discussion reminds me a bit of the closing scene of "Day of the Doctor", where we see Tom Baker's character tells Eleven that in the future, he may revisit some of his 'old faces', but "just the old favorites" and then goes on to say that "perhaps I was you, of course... or perhaps you are me", all this following Eleven's reflection on how he could retire and be Curator of the place. Some folks still are intrigued by an alternate explanation than the one clearly (IMO) laid out. A bit of something akin to fans of the Hollow Earth Theory I feel is working here. It seems to involve people who are 'in charge' are lying.

Unless you are looking for an alternate 'conspiracy theory', I think the creators of the film made it fairly clear that the Prime Universe still exists. How much this was due to their wish to make sure some fans would not be outraged that Shatner Kirk and his crew and their adventures were not recorded over like an old VCR take of someone's niece's wedding, we do not know. But I believe that Shatner's Kirk is still fighting that rubbery Gorn and switching bodies with Janice Lester back over in the Prime Universe.

And I don't know why people may WANT to believe this. I think there is a group of fans that really don't like ST09 and STID, so they can discount those new stories and hate them even more if a new timeline has wiped from existence the Original stories told up to this point. Maybe this is the case here, maybe not.

For me, that "Original" Universe still exists, for reasons beyond the fact that I still have the tapes and DVDs!

 

[Franklin]

I will say that even Kirk seemed a bit confused, though. As they parted, he said to Spock Prime that coming back in time and changing history was cheating. Spock Prime's response was that it was something he learned from an old friend.

Spock Prime did go back in time, he appeared in the already branched-off time line of the new universe. He was not in his universe any more. That said, he couldn't change history in this universe, but he could help create it. In this universe, he was the catalyst for the events that led to Kirk's command. (And course, his appearance led to all the threads about what he should or shouldn't reveal to the people of this universe about what they may most likely face in their future -- V'ger, the probe, the Borg, and all.)

Of course near the end of the movie, Spock Prime did kind of let on to Spock that he misled Kirk about what was going on.

 

[Makarov]

It's kinda cute when people talk about this like there was some kind of "real" answer beyond what the producers said and what the public choose to believe.

Well there would be no discussion if everyone thought it was too silly to discuss

I do believe the movie should stand alone beyond what producers say , but IMO the only way I could believe it was overwriting th prime universe would be a scene in prime where stuff is changing / fading out.

 

[Rincewiend]

Klingons learn of Red Matter, steal it, and use it to destroy homeworlds of their enemies.

The Tribble homeworld?

 

[Robert D. Robot]

I wonder if Spock Prime knows, himself, whether he is continuing forward in time in an altered Prime Universe or in a separate, Alternate Universe. That being said, I am sure that he would be traumatized by seeing his fellow Vulcans being massacred, whether he believed them to be of the Universe he was born in, or of an alternate Universe. I also think, in either case, he would work tirelessly to make sure that things went well in the reality that he currently finds himself in.

 

[Mytran]

...it's awfully difficult to see how any "overwriting" of history could take place in the Trek universe, where it is established (put into the work!) that every event branches off into potential other timelines all the time. But if no overwriting is possible, then the work of all those heroes who go back in time to repair it becomes rather futile. The Whale Probe destroys Earth? Okay, we went back and got these whales, so now there exists this timeline where Earth wasn't destroyed after all, but that doesn't much help Sarek who died on that other Earth. And if it doesn't, why bother with heroics?

That's not the only issue - what about predestination paradoxes? There are several incidents in the known Trek time travel that could fall into this category, but Time's Arrow is quite explicitly one. If Guinan had shared her knowledge with Picard ahead of time, would they have still tried their hardest to succeed, even knowing that history (and Guinan sitting there) demonstrated conclusively that they would succeed? Where does free will factor into all this?

 

[The Wormhole]

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

But When were the writers first quoted as saying it was in fact an "alternate universe"? Altered "reality" or alternate timeline doesn't necessarily mean alternate universe - that could have been reinterpreted in the later stages of the film post production, based on fan reactions. The first quote I found is from several days after the movie was released - could be reacting to fan reactions by saying altered reality means alternate universe?

In IDW's comics, which are directly supervised by Orci and don't get published without his signed approval, it's made very clear the Prime Universe continues to exist unaltered after Spock and Nero disappear into the black hole. Indeed, the Prime Universe has even been revisited a few times, even recently, in the Abramsverse comics.

 

[Cadet49]

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

But When were the writers first quoted as saying it was in fact an "alternate universe"? Altered "reality" or alternate timeline doesn't necessarily mean alternate universe - that could have been reinterpreted in the later stages of the film post production, based on fan reactions. The first quote I found is from several days after the movie was released - could be reacting to fan reactions by saying altered reality means alternate universe?

In IDW's comics, which are directly supervised by Orci and don't get published without his signed approval, it's made very clear the Prime Universe continues to exist unaltered after Spock and Nero disappear into the black hole. Indeed, the Prime Universe has even been revisited a few times, even recently, in the Abramsverse comics.

But comics aren't traditionally ever considered part of the official "canon" of Star Trek, even with Orci supervising them, unless that definition of 'canon' has been changed or expanded upon during the JJ Abrams "reign" - only filmed Trek has ever been considered relevant to the primary plot and storyline, so that film writers aren't bound to adhere to all the tie-in media. I know that the recent comic, the Q Gambit, featured an intro with Picard being told by Q that Spock was in an alternate reality, but all tie-in merchandise, (novels, video games, comics) are considered personal interpretations of the Filmed Star Trek universe.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

But comics aren't traditionally ever considered part of the official "canon" of Star Trek, even with Orci supervising them, unless that definition of 'canon' has been changed or expanded upon during the JJ Abrams "reign" - only filmed Trek has ever been considered relevant to the primary plot and storyline, so that film writers aren't bound to adhere to all the tie-in media. I know that the recent comic, the Q Gambit, featured an intro with Picard being told by Q that Spock was in an alternate reality, but all tie-in merchandise, (novels, video games, comics) are considered personal interpretations of the Filmed Star Trek universe.

If you're going to use "real world" rules to determine what is reality within the Trekverse (e.g. what counts as canon and what does not), then you must also use "real world" rules to determine if Prime Trek still exists -- meaning it's 100% completely about both the existence of my PrimeTrek DVDs and VHS tapes, which are still here, and what the creators of Star Trek say, and they say the Prime timeline still exists.

It also does not matter when or where the creators of Star Trek said that this is an alternate reality. We know exactly what their intentions were when they said that it was an alternate reality akin to the episode "Parallels" -- and that was to convey exactly that.

 

[The Wormhole]

But When were the writers first quoted as saying it was in fact an "alternate universe"? Altered "reality" or alternate timeline doesn't necessarily mean alternate universe - that could have been reinterpreted in the later stages of the film post production, based on fan reactions. The first quote I found is from several days after the movie was released - could be reacting to fan reactions by saying altered reality means alternate universe?

In IDW's comics, which are directly supervised by Orci and don't get published without his signed approval, it's made very clear the Prime Universe continues to exist unaltered after Spock and Nero disappear into the black hole. Indeed, the Prime Universe has even been revisited a few times, even recently, in the Abramsverse comics.

But comics aren't traditionally ever considered part of the official "canon" of Star Trek, even with Orci supervising them, unless that definition of 'canon' has been changed or expanded upon during the JJ Abrams "reign" - only filmed Trek has ever been considered relevant to the primary plot and storyline, so that film writers aren't bound to adhere to all the tie-in media. I know that the recent comic, the Q Gambit, featured an intro with Picard being told by Q that Spock was in an alternate reality, but all tie-in merchandise, (novels, video games, comics) are considered personal interpretations of the Filmed Star Trek universe.

Canonical value of the comics doesn't matter, if Orci doesn't approve of it, it doesn't get published. And in the case of The Q Gambit, in addition to the intro, we also have an epilogue set in the Prime Universe, plus the main portion of the story is in the 24th century of the Abramsverse which is quite different from the Prime.

In addition to the Q Gambit the Prime Universe is featured in Mirrored and Parallel Lives.

Also, as many have pointed out above Orci and the other Bad Robot cadre have implicitly stated multiple times it is an alternate timeline which exists separate from the Prime.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Really, does it matter outside of headcanons? I like the idea that maybe the original timeline was rewritten and only lives on in Spock Prime's memories (it makes it more epic), but I also like the Prime'verse novels continuing that continuity.

 

[Malaika]

I'm amazed that after six years (?) this argument still exists.

there is plenty of evidence in canon and from the writers, script, approved comics, dvds etc etc that Nero created an alternate reality parallel with the other that still exists.
How many times did Orci say that they use quantum mechanics and not the old fashioned sci-fi concept of time travel ala back to the future?

 

[robau]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

This is not open to debate or interpretation.

It is a work of fiction and those responsible for it clearly state that both continuities still exist.

End of.

What creators say outside of their works isn't canon. Anything they say is basically irrelevant unless backed up by the work itself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

This is not open to debate or interpretation.

It is a work of fiction and those responsible for it clearly state that both continuities still exist.

End of.

What creators say outside of their works isn't canon. Anything they say is basically irrelevant unless backed up by the work itself.

The work supports it. They spell it out in dialog. I'll take the creator's intent over fan speculation every time.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

How many times did Orci say that they use quantum mechanics and not the old fashioned sci-fi concept of time travel ala back to the future?

Orci's "justification" using "quantum mechanics" is an over-reliance on what is essentially the same argument he's trying to make.

There is no hard and fast rule in QM that says history definitely acts this way, i.e. an event will branch into two (or more) separate timelines, depending on the outcome. In fact, the idea he's quoting (Everett's Many Worlds scenario) is NOT the favored theory. It is simply a way to explain something that we don't understand: *how* nature chooses the outcome of a random process (technically: the collapse of a superposed wavefunction to a definite state).

To summarize: there is nothing in physics that says two timelines are created when I flip a coin. There are just speculations about how Nature chooses to resolve that outcome (i.e. if I get heads, it is likely there is no universe where I got tails that carries on independently).

 

[Queen Mab]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

No need to be such a dick to Cadet49 with the way you reply.

 

[Ithekro]

Well in the story they refer to this as an alternate universe. Normally what we would get is the Prime Universe character's point of view for the whole story, with this being an altered timeline that needs to be fixed. But this time we are given the other universe's characters as the point of view, and they call it an alternate universe. Not to be corrected, but to deal with the immediate problem (Nero). That they have Spock as a guild to potental future events helps, but things are not going exactly as they did before.

And with Nimoy gone, that source will also be gone.

Mind you that when Star Trek: Online was made, it was a Prime Universe tie-in with the new Star Trek movies. Decades had past. Spock was MIA. Romulas was destroyed by an odd supernova. The remaining Prime Universe character go in with their lives.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

No need to be such a dick to Cadet49 with the way you reply.

What's "dickish" about what I said?

 

[M'Sharak]

^ Nothing dickish about it at all.

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

No need to be such a dick to Cadet49 with the way you reply.

Queen Mab, if you think that there's a problem with any post or that it breaks any board rule, then what you should do is click on the Notify Moderator button (

) for that post. The forum moderator will then review the content of that post and take any action which may be deemed necessary.

What you should not do is call someone out in-thread. That job is not yours to do.