Nemesis YouTube Review

[TremblingBluStar]

I apologize if this has been discussed here before, but I thought it would spark some interesting debate since the reviewer tries to prove his opinion that Nemesis is the best TNG film.

What I speak of is this Nemesis review on YouTube. Even though I found the review to be well thought out and professionally done (no cursing or name calling), I have to disagree with many of his points - such as no Data character growth is good. While I agree that Data was horribly mishandled in the previous films, chucking out all of his character development with the emotion chip was not a good choice.

I have more to say, but I figure I'd let others comment until I have more time.

 

[Falcor5]

That was a very interesting review. Thanks for posting it!

 

[Harvey]

You know, I still feel that the film is terrible, but, this review is fantastic. Very well done.

And, by the way, here's the link to part two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pHspoSyDeA

 

[mahler5]

great film......the greatest of all time. This is what all films aspire to be. Bow down and worship the spectacle that is nemismess

 

[SiorX]

He lost me after the bit where he explained that Nemesis rocks because it ignores the boring bland TNG characters, and focusses on the utterly three-dimensional and well-realised Shinzon.

I has not the leet vidding skills to say it right, but I wubbed those 'boring' characters, and Shinzon was a tool

 

[KDoug]

I respect this guy's point of view, but I have to disagree with most of it.

B-4: He's right that Data forms an interesting opinion of B-4's plight, but it doesn't take half a brain to know that, because of their experience with Lore, a more reasonable reaction to B-4 would be one of extreme caution.

Shinzon: I thought that Shinzon wasn't a very well-realized character. Much of the time, his portrayal was of a guy who was cool and calculating, who had a crystal-clear agenda and a plan to accomplish it. And yet, he kept doing things that would come from someone who makes rash, spur-of-the-moment decisions.

Here's a few made-up quotes to illustrate my point:

"Let me see... I need to take over the Romulan Empire, lure Picard into a trap so that I can take his blood... Oh! Oh! And while I'm at it, I should see if I can get intelligence on Starfleet's fleet deployment and encryptions. I'll need a huge ship, Thalaron devices of various sizes, an ally or two in the Senate, and didn't I hear about an old Soong-type android lying around somewhere? Better get started!"

"Oh, what should I do now? Get cracking on kidnapping Picard? Naaahhhh, too easy... I know! I'll mind-rape Troi!"

"Hey, Picard! We're gonna be best buds! Let's do lunch! Tell me about our family. Please? Okay, see you later! Ah, that Picard. He's a great guy. Oh. Wait a minute... I still need his blood! Er... transporter room! Get Picard back here at once!"

"Dangit, I'm better than Picard! I'll show them all! I'll destroy Earth! I might hate Romulans more than I hate humans, but that'll show 'em!"

Uninteresting TNG characters: I'm not going to argue about whether or not the TNG characters are uninteresting. But, what he doesn't understand is that no character is simply intrinsically interesting or uninteresting. A character is interesting or uninteresting because they're written that way. If a writer wanted to avoid telling a story about uninteresting characters, one way to do it is by writing them so that they're more interesting.

 

[Kegek]

Shinzon's character arc makes no sense. He was abused and brutalised by the Romulans. So he decides to ally with the Romulan military against the Federation, because that way he'll get to be Praetor.

To use an American analogy, it's like as if a black man became President of the Confederacy and launched an attack on the Union. Certainly, the Confederates - as the Romulans eventually do - might change their mind about whether they want this guy as their leader. Wouldn't the other way round have been more logical?

That bugged the hell out of me, but when I simply ignore it, the film flows easier. The Undiscovered Country had a considerably more cogent conspiracy.

This is an interesting review, and it does make some points I agree with (mainly the negative ones). Nemesis was the most cinematic of the TNG features... but is that necessarily a good thing? We like TV. We like our TV two-parters. Is there something inherently wrong with a TV two-parter with a slightly bigger budget on the big screen?

 

[KDoug]

Kegek said:
We like TV. We like our TV two-parters. Is there something inherently wrong with a TV two-parter with a slightly bigger budget on the big screen?

Not a thing! Just so long as it's a GOOD two-parter instead of a BAD two-parter.

 

[Kegek]

KDoug said:
Not a thing! Just so long as it's a GOOD two-parter instead of a BAD two-parter.

Too true! I can see one criticise INS, GEN and FC on that level. But for some it's enough to say 'it feels like TV'.

 

[SiorX]

Kegek said:
This is an interesting review, and it does make some points I agree with (mainly the negative ones). Nemesis was the most cinematic of the TNG features... but is that necessarily a good thing? We like TV. We like our TV two-parters. Is there something inherently wrong with a TV two-parter with a slightly bigger budget on the big screen?

I guess it depends to whom you're pitching the movie, and wasn't that largely the problem with Next Gen movies? None of them managed to find the balance between pleasing fans who'd come through 7 years with these characters, and making a movie that will be comprehensible as a movie to non-fans.

 

[Kegek]

SiorX said:
I guess it depends to whom you're pitching the movie, and wasn't that largely the problem with Next Gen movies? None of them managed to find the balance between pleasing fans who'd come through 7 years with these characters, and making a movie that will be comprehensible as a movie to non-fans.

Agreed, this is a difficult balance. I think the best bet is to try and make a good movie... but that's not to say there wasn't that effort every time. (Insurrection, with its intent to adapt Conrad's Heart of Darkness, was heading in interesting ways before the order came to lighten it up).

I think ultimately the problem of the TNG movies is... they tried to not be like the series. Only Generations was really like the series, and sadly it was mainly the show's weaknesses, not its strengths. Adhering more to an intellectual Picard and to serious moral problems (good shots were tried in all four films, to be fair) and intelligent plotting could have worked. TNG was a show ideally suited to casual viewing - unlike DS9 and many shows today, it didn't have complicated arcs and intertwined references that would lose the casual viewer. It should have worked on the big screen.

Should have. Did not. "The Chain of Command" is the best TNG movie; "The Best of Both Worlds" and "All Good Things..." being other fine entries.

 

[KDoug]

SiorX said:
I guess it depends to whom you're pitching the movie, and wasn't that largely the problem with Next Gen movies? None of them managed to find the balance between pleasing fans who'd come through 7 years with these characters, and making a movie that will be comprehensible as a movie to non-fans.

I don't see that as the problem. I see three basic things that the film-makers would need to take into account:

(1) Have a good story on a basic level. This is something that both fans and non-fans should be able to agree on.

(2) It should have a Star Trek kind of story, meaning that the story should explore the idea of what it is to be human and/or criticize present-day situations. But, these themes can be woven into the main plot instead of being the entire plot. This is something that fans would especially want to see but that non-fans shouldn't be averse to even if they aren't looking for it.

and

(3) "True" characterizations. Continuing characters should talk, act, and appear to think the way that they should, based on their previous appearances, while allowing them to change in a realistic way due to their experiences in the movie. This is a must for fans, but again, I don't see why non-fans should have a problem with it. Additionally, new characters should behave in ways that make sense instead of simply doing what's convenient for the plot. This is a must for good storytelling and no one should have a problem with it.