Nemesis, TWOK, and Transformers

[Lord Garth]

In the nine years since Nemesis was released, I've never started a thread about it. Never felt a need to. It's well known that it's arguably considered the worst Star Trek movie, with TFF as its chief rival, but that's not quite the point here.

Nope. In all the ranking threads through the years, I've always compared Star Trek movies with other Star Trek movies. Among them, I consider TWOK the best and NEM the worst.

BUT I don't consider TWOK a four-star movie (on a four-scale). I also don't consider NEM a one-star movie. In fact, if I assigned star ratings to all the movies that are ranked -- when compared to other movies -- it would look pretty boring. I'd be alternating exclusively between two stars and three stars.

Nothing in Nemesis or the worst of Star Trek in general -- except "Threshold" -- even competes with the Transformers movies. That's a whole other scale.

The first live-action movie was okay, the second one went off the rails and was extremely racist. The third movie, from what I've read, just sounds stupid. The only thing better about it seems to be that it doesn't have Skids and Mudflap in it.

Compared to these movies, Nemesis looks like The Graduate.

 

[Mr Silver]

In all the ranking threads through the years, I've always compared Star Trek movies with other Star Trek movies. Among them, I consider TWOK the best and NEM the worst.
BUT I don't consider TWOK a four-star movie (on a four-scale). I also don't consider NEM a one-star movie. In fact, if I assigned star ratings to all the movies that are ranked -- when compared to other movies -- it would look pretty boring. I'd be alternating exclusively between two stars and three stars.

I don't think its fair to compare or rank the Star Trek (excluding 09) franchise alongside critically acclaimed movies and those regarded as "classics". I think that trek should be ranked inside the Sci-Fi category, rather than a general list of movies. Science Fiction, in most cases cannot reach a wide audience and therefore most Sci-Fi movies are absent from the nominations tables in the "big" film awards like the Oscar's and the Golden Globes.

Nothing in Nemesis or the worst of Star Trek in general, even competes with the Transformers movies. That's a whole other scale.

True, but the Transformers franchise has made more money than every Star Trek movie combined. Whilst being critically poor, it reaches out to a wider and larger audience and therefore if you were to take 100 average, everyday people and make them watch Transformers and TWOK, at least 80% would regard Transformers as the more enjoyable movie.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm not really arguing the profitability, just that even a bad Star Trek movie is still better than a "good" Transformers movie.

 

[BDJ]

I have to disagree with you when you say the worst Trek stuff is better than the Transfomers movies. I enjoy both Trek and Transformers. I'll have to say that the newest is just bombastic fun and I'd watch it well before I'd revist Trek that makes me wince! If you can't watch the Transformers then just don't. Why are you trying to drum up support from Trek fans to bash these other films? BTW if you'd actually watched Dark of the Moon you'd have enjoyed many Trek references in the film and a certain vulcan actor voices one of the main characters!

 

[inflatabledalek]

I don't know, even Revenge of the Fallen, the weakest of the three TF films, still has some nice moments and in the forest fight one of the greatest action scenes in cinema history ("Is the future of our race not worth one human life?" "You'll never stop at one... I'LL TAKE YOU ALL ON!" is a bigger crowning moment of awesome in and of itself than anything in the whole of Nemesis).

By comparison the tenth TNG film often feels very lifeless. Indeed, considering it seems have been a diliberate attempt to reinvent the Trek films as "Big" (as opposed to the attitude taken with most of the previous ones of doing them with a more mid range budget to maximise the profits) as possible following the mediocre reaction to Insurrection it doesn't even stand up well compared to contemporary blockbusters like The Two Towers. Things like the entire Romulan empire being run from a room the size of my flat just look a bit rubbish in something that recent trying to be Epic with a capital E.

Though one thing the Trek films do have over Transformers in specific and most long running movie franchises in general in the variety. With the exception of Nemesis doing Khan Redux none of them really rehash each other, and most make a very deliberate effort to be at least a little different in tone or ideas to their imediate predecessor. That's very commendable, and, for me, one of the best things about the series.

The TF films on the other hand seem to be happy to have set themselves up as the American equiverlent to the Godzilla franchise, and more power to them for doing it so well. But even with factoring in that a potential fourth film is almost certainly going to have an entirely new creative team behind it I don't think we'll ever see two TF films so different as, say, Khan and Voyage Home are (made only two films and four years apart by the same people no less).

 

[BlobVanDam]

Hm I thought we already had a generic "Transformers is shit" thread...........

The first Transformers film is definitely better than Nemesis, and TFF.

 

[Lord Garth]

Hm I thought we already had a generic "Transformers is shit" thread...........

Sorry about that then.

Anyway... Transformers isn't shit. The Mario movie from 1993 (or '94) is shit. For Transformers: 1 is okay for what it is, 2 is racist and ridiculous, and 3 sounds stupid and more overblown than usual. That's not the same as shit which is, again, another degree.

I can say a Transformers movie is stupid and still watch it. Mario... I didn't watch all the way through and can do without ever watching it in its entirety.

 

[BDJ]

I never agreed with the "racist" comments concerning Revenge of the Fallen. The characters may be stereotyped but not racist. To make the racist comment I think you would have to look at the intent of the characters creation. I don't believe they were looking to make characters that offend but were humorous. We are so stinkin' touchy these days. Those two characters are no more racist than, say, 'Mater in Cars 2 is for perpetuating a stereotype. There's a difference, IMHO.

 

[inflatabledalek]

I never agreed with the "racist" comments concerning Revenge of the Fallen. The characters may be stereotyped but not racist. To make the racist comment I think you would have to look at the intent of the characters creation. I don't believe they were looking to make characters that offend but were humorous. We are so stinkin' touchy these days. Those two characters are no more racist than, say, 'Mater in Cars 2 is for perpetuating a stereotype. There's a difference, IMHO.

Plus deciding that the green and red robots who are just a bit dim, annoying and trying far too hard to be cool are directly based on black people probably says more about the person thinking that than the film makers.

They actually reminded me very much of my (white, British) cousins five or six years ago, just trying far to hard to be cool and current with frequently very silly and/or annoying results. I suspect many of us were like that back in our early teens.

 

[Lord Garth]

Plus deciding that the green and red robots who are just a bit dim, annoying and trying far too hard to be cool are directly based on black people probably says more about the person thinking that than the film makers.

I'm not white and everyone who I've talked to about the movie (regradless of race) thinks those characters are racist. Until six months ago, I'd lived in an urban city all my life and I can spot caricatures and who they're caricatures of when I see them.

Can we please not go the ad hominem route?

 

[inflatabledalek]

Can we please not go the ad hominem route?

Well, that's me told. So you're saying that everyone involved in the final edit of the film and the voicework was being either intentionally racist or were so stupid they didn't spot it? I don't buy that. They're just teenage caricatures, how annoying they are is one of those mileage may vary things but being unlikable isn't in and of itself proof of racism.

 

[starburst]

The 3rd film I would say is the best out of the lot, and being a Trek fan I dont agree that even a bad Trek fan is better than any of the 3, there are Trek films which are far worse than even TF2.

Muddflap and Skids were stupid and for the most part the worst characters of TF2 with the exception of when one gets 'eaten' by a constructocon. Its been a while since I watched the film, from what I remember they seemed very childish and possibly a sterotype but I didnt see them as being much more racist than every Imperial Officer in Star Wars being very British.

Nimoy was good and all but one of the Trek references people are making a big deal out of were subtle.

Spoiler: view spoiler

However when it came to what happened leaving the cinema left a feeling I imagine some Trek fans had for Malcolm Mcdowell after GEN without the urge to send him hate mail. That was one of the most shocking things I have seen in a film in a while but wonder if its being a fan of Transformers or Star Trek which made it such a shock

 

[Lord Garth]

All right, fine.

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But how about this: Nemesis or "The Carwash of Doom"?

 

[CaptainStoner]

All right, fine.

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But how about this: Nemesis or "The Carwash of Doom"?

Hey, somebody had to wash the Argus.

 

[inflatabledalek]

But how about this: Nemesis or "The Carwash of Doom"?

Hey, somebody had to wash the Argus.

Ratbat officially makes anything and everything awesome. Considering they seem to be having one of the former tape guys in each of the movies I'm hoping the 4th film has old Raty as the new Decepticon leader, just to increase the awesomeness factor by 500%.

 

[The_Baroness]

But how about this: Nemesis or "The Carwash of Doom"?

Hey, somebody had to wash the Argus.

Ratbat officially makes anything and everything awesome. Considering they seem to be having one of the former tape guys in each of the movies I'm hoping the 4th film has old Raty as the new Decepticon leader, just to increase the awesomeness factor by 500%.

If that happens, I will die a very VERY happy man.


I love the Transformers films, Trek fan as I am, I am a far bigger Transformers fan and would far prefer to watch ROTF over Final Frontier, or Nemesis.

Even my wife, who is very much NOT a transformers fan loves the TF movies, and she loves Trek, but doesm't like the Trek movies....

also - Dark of the Moon isn't Nimoy's first outing voicing a Transformer, he was Galvatron in the original 1986 animated movie.

 

[sonak]

until this thread emerged, I had not realized there were adults who actually liked the Transformers movies. Live and learn I guess.

 

[The_Baroness]

Are you kidding? For alot, it's a nostalgia thing. I grew up with Transformers.

nowadays, on top of the films, you have an extensive comics franchise too, which continue to have appeal.

Theres also a huge collectors market, which I'm a part of.

 

[RyanKCR]

Are you kidding? For alot, it's a nostalgia thing. I grew up with Transformers.

nowadays, on top of the films, you have an extensive comics franchise too, which continue to have appeal.

Theres also a huge collectors market, which I'm a part of.

I still need to get Thundercraker:

 

[sonak]

Are you kidding? For alot, it's a nostalgia thing. I grew up with Transformers.

nowadays, on top of the films, you have an extensive comics franchise too, which continue to have appeal.

Theres also a huge collectors market, which I'm a part of.

I can understand nostalgia. I grew up on He-Man and Thundercats. But when I watch those shows now, I realize that they're not exactly of great quality.