Nemesis Novelization

[Paper Moon]

It does offer its own insights into such Romulan supporting characters as Donatra, Suran, and Praetor Hiren, but its interpretation of them is different from the novelverse's.

Would you mind refreshing my memory? It's been a very long while since I read the novelization, and I don't have access to the book at the moment. (Weren't Donatra and Suran lovers?)

I remember reading Nemesis just after it came out and then having no problem with the continuity when "Death In Winter" came out, followed by all the other books. (I think Michael Jan Friedman might've even written an exit for the Madden character, such as talking to people in a corridor at a turbo lift, and then having the door open because it the system was being programmed and Madden turned and-well there was the end of Madden.)

According to Memory Beta the only mention in the novels of Madden was Q & A which features an alternate universe where Madden is indeed the Enterprise's first officer.

And, if memory serves, Picard's internal voice comments in Q & A that he'd never heard of a Commander Martin Madden anywhere in Starfleet. (Sorta a shame in a way, there could've been an interesting side-story there.)

Actually, isn't it sorta unusual for the novels to ignore the deleted scenes of a Star Trek film? All that's coming to mind right now is the line about Saavik's heritage from TWoK, but I feel like the rule of thumb for "expanded universe" material in Trekdom is to include deleted material unless it blatantly contradicts canon...?

 

[Christopher]

Actually, isn't it sorta unusual for the novels to ignore the deleted scenes of a Star Trek film?

Not at all. After all, the thing about deleted scenes that people tend to forget in this age of DVD features is that they're not actually part of the film. And that means they're not binding. Scenes deleted from one Trek film or episode have sometimes been contradicted in later films or episodes. Examples go back to the original ending of "The Cage," with Vina being given an illusion of Pike to live with -- which was contradicted by "The Menagerie" since that footage was repurposed. Then there was the cut scene in DS9's "Statistical Probabilities" where Sarina spoke, which was emphatically contradicted by "Chrysalis." And there were various scenes or lines cut from one episode or film and then inserted into a later one, like McCoy's line "I liked him better before he died," which was cut from ST IV and then used in ST V.

So since deleted scenes aren't "real," later canonical works are free to contradict them, so there's no reason tie-ins can't contradict them either.

...I feel like the rule of thumb for "expanded universe" material in Trekdom is to include deleted material unless it blatantly contradicts canon...?

No such rule. Deleted scenes are no different from any other non-canonical material such as other novels, comics, RPG materials, reference books, etc. If it's useful to draw on an idea from a deleted scene, or from any other non-canonical source, we can use it; but if it serves the story better to ignore it, we'll ignore it. If it's deleted, it's simply not part of the story.

For instance, the novels have thoroughly ignored not only the Madden scene from Nemesis, but the scene with Wesley Crusher saying he'd be serving on Titan.

 

[Paper Moon]

<snip>

Yep, I know all that. In my own defense, of course deleted scenes aren't binding, but that doesn't mean writers couldn't consistently take cues from them anyway. Sorta like the difference between a legal contract and a "gentlemen's agreement". (And as for the Sarina example, I did include a little caveat about not including things blatantly contradicted by canon.)

I guess I just figured there were more supporting examples that I couldn't think of. But I guess not.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, we can take cues from them, if we want, but it's a mistake to call it a "rule of thumb." There is no rule. It's case-by-case, just as with any other non-canonical material.

 

[tomswift2002]

With the Cage and Menagerie I don't think anything was contradicted, since Vina had Pike's allusion when he returned too the Enterprise, but hen at the end of Menagerie the Talosians just gave him the same illusion so that he didn't believe that he was stuck in that stupid chair, and so that he could intract with Vina in a better way.

 

[Christopher]

^But you're talking about two events 13 years apart in which the characters made the exact same movements and gestures. No, I don't think so.

 

[Greg Cox]

For what it's worth, I'm often discouraged from including deleted scenes in movie novelizations. I've had to argue to keep deleted scenes in some of my Underworld books.

Deleted scenes are often deleted for a reason and are not considered part of the finished product, although, granted, this gets blurry in this age of expanded "Director's Cut" and "Unrated" DVDs.

(I managed to include a deleted scene in Underworld: Evolution because the director already intended to put it back into an expanded DVD version.)

 

[WarsTrek1993]

For what it's worth, I'm often discouraged from including deleted scenes in movie novelizations. I've had to argue to keep deleted scenes in some of my Underworld books.

Deleted scenes are often deleted for a reason and are not considered part of the finished product, although, granted, this gets blurry in this age of expanded "Director's Cut" and "Unrated" DVDs.

(I managed to include a deleted scene in Underworld: Evolution because the director already intended to put it back into an expanded DVD version.)

I was grateful you were able to include all of the deleted scenes from "Daredevil" in your novelization, since they add even more depth to the film!

 

[Christopher]

Heck, the theatrical cut of Daredevil hacked out so much that a novelization limited to onscreen material would've been extremely short.

 

[WarsTrek1993]

Heck, the theatrical cut of Daredevil hacked out so much that a novelization limited to onscreen material would've been extremely short.

Yeah, that was damn stupid to remove all of that material.

 

[Greg Cox]

Heck, the theatrical cut of Daredevil hacked out so much that a novelization limited to onscreen material would've been extremely short.

Tell me about it. Without the deleted scenes, that book would have been a novella-zation!

Seriously, nobody told me all those scenes had been cut. I was as surprised as anybody when I finally saw the movie and realized how much been left out!

Funny story: I got a piece of fan mail from a mom who was grateful that I didn't include the scene where Matt and Elektra have sex. I didn't have the heart to tell her that the only reason that scene wasn't in the book was because nobody told me about it.

(It wasn't in the original script.)

 

[Timo]

But you're talking about two events 13 years apart in which the characters made the exact same movements and gestures. No, I don't think so.

Why wouldn't the Talosians "recycle footage"? It's the obvious thing to do!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

But you're talking about two events 13 years apart in which the characters made the exact same movements and gestures. No, I don't think so.

Why wouldn't the Talosians "recycle footage"? It's the obvious thing to do!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why wouldn't the Talosians "recycle footage"?

They sold it off to syndication.