NCC-1701 vs Superman

[3D Master]

It is NOT in a quadrillion tiny pieces; that's the point of the quantum foam state. You're brain is both fully intact and reduced to energy at the same time.

It is in a quadrillion pieces, the buffer just stores all the matter before sending it on it's way through subspace.

Nope, it is not.

A pattern can only exist intact outside of the buffer, if it exists inside the buffer at the same time. The moment it is not in the buffer; it falls apart. That's the essence of quantum mechanics and quantum entanglements and the transporter.

How can it be in two places at once.

It's a consequence of quantum mechanics, look it up. In quantum mechanics, objects can temporarily be in multiple places at the same time.

The pattern must leave the buffer and then it's put back together outside the buffer on the transporter pad using whatever technology is required to do it. The transporter pad is the device which breaks matter up and puts it back together,

Again, it is NOT broken up. If it were broken up, Barclay a. couldn't have been conscious, b. couldn't have seen the other patterns, and c. wouldn't even be able to move at all, not to mention d. the transporter would be pure agony and pain.

The transporter turns you into energy - aka a quantum foam, an odd in between state where your molecules are both matter and raw energy at the same time. You however, remain intact.

the buffer is nothing more than a place to store the matter before it get's sent where it needs sending.

The pattern buffer is the place that allows your pattern to remain intact, and allows for it not to degrade and fall apart during transportation. The stuff in the buffer is quantum mechanically linked with the you on the pad and the you at the destination; and you're intact inside the buffer.

Matter can exist outside the buffer, it exists within the confinement beam on the transporter pad. The transporter pad and the technology it's made of is what does all the work, the buffer is nothing more than a container/storage device.

This is where you are wrong. The buffer is what makes sure that you don't degrade during transport. It allows one to check whether the you at the destination is the same as the you an the origin point. Without that buffer, the chances of you making it to your destination without the buffer intact and unchanged is slim to nun.

As each atom and molecule is broken apart it's stored in the buffer until the object/person has been fully de-materialized and then it's sent on it's way.

You keep thinking that de-materialization equals broken apart; torn to shreads, and such. It just doesn't.

 

[Trekker4747]

Even just turning the brain to slush would stop the brain from functioning so technically you do die but on re-materialization you're back alive again.

What some people get confused about is that they believe the person on the other end is just a copy, technically in the Star Trek universe it's not a copy at all because it's the exact same atoms and molecules of the original person which get's sent through subspace so realistically we can say the person in location A is the exact same person in location B.

It doesn't matter if it's the same atoms. If you turn the brain into energy you destroy it. Then even if you put it back together again using that same energy you essentially making a brand new brain.

YOU are your brain. Everything about you is dependant on your brain functioning just like it is now.

Star Trek uses the magic of a "matter stream" and "subspace" to try and "explain" that it IS the same person who arrives at the destination. Because the brain is never destroyed. It might be "partly taken apart" but it's mostly maintained in a state of "intactness" to prevent the loss of the person.

Think of it this way:

I take your brain I destroy it. I take it apart mollecule by mollecule so that all I have sitting around me are the base elements of your brain but no real combined piece of "brain matter." Sort of like running electricity through water. It's now all hydrogen and oxygen. Base elements.

I then take all these atoms that were your brain and reassemble them exactly as they were before. This newly assembled brain acts like you, thinks it's you, but it's not *YOU* it's a clone. A copy. The "real you" was lost when the brain became a handul of elements. Because once your brain was no longer brain matter and instead a bunch of atoms neurons were no longer holding memories, or transfering thoughts, or anything like that.

Now, say I take your brain and I simply cut it in very tiny pieces. Each piece I keep track of so I know *exactly* where it goes. I then put all the pieces of your brain back together -exactly as it was- (let us also assume I've the capability and technology to keep the brain pieces "alive" and oxygenated so they don't deteoriate in the procedure) essentially what I've done here is very fucked-up brain surgery. When your brain is back together it IS you. Because your brain's mollecules remained intact -though not connected to one another.

I know it's a tough difference but it'd be all of the difference in the world.

You take that electrified water from above and you burn the hydrogren and then condense the vapor. Sure you get water again but it's not the "same water" you started with.

Trek's transporter has enough techno-nonsense in it to keep our characters "intact enough" that they don't lose "themselves" in the process. Either by subsapce, not completely converting the brain to energy (you could get away with converting everything but possibly the areas dealing with memory) or something along those lines. It would seem to even keep those pieces of the brain "communicating with one another" even when it's mostly energy giving people the ability to think and move inside the beam.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

The Enterprise would not only win, but Capt. Kirk would run off with Lois Lane just to spite the "man of steel"

I was browsing the net for this subject and found this

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/uss-enterprise-vs/394063/

First of all this "Bumnut" character is not me, so don't go giving her/him grief thinking its good old MoO
second what the hell are they thinking??!?

Putting "Hulk" against Picard's USS Enterprise-D?
Please somebody inform them it is not correct what's Hulk going to do, throw rocks? Make loud noises?

Third does anyone have a Trek comicbook scan so I can register and show them all these "heroes" are going to be nuked

 

[The Lensman]

Supes would win. Because it doesn't matter how fast the Enterprise is, or it's transporters, tractor beams or any of that.....the crew itself are not as fast as Superman. Long before their brains can tell their hands to do anything, Superman can be there to stop them. Be on board, in the bridge, grab everyone and have them in the brig or unconscious before they can even move. He can do it all in the wink of an eye.

And that's current Superman. Not "moves so fast he flies through time" Superman of the 60's and 70's.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Meh Captain Pike would show-up and kick that boyscout's ass for trying to f@#k with his old ship.

 

[Myasishchev]

Actually it doesn't "kill" you. It doesn't make the full transfer from matter-to-energy, it turns you into a matter-energy "slush" (it mostly likely doesn't completely dematerialize the brain matter to prevent any complications with "is the person on the other end "really you.") and transmits that to the destination.

Even just turning the brain to slush would stop the brain from functioning so technically you do die but on re-materialization you're back alive again.

What some people get confused about is that they believe the person on the other end is just a copy, technically in the Star Trek universe it's not a copy at all because it's the exact same atoms and molecules of the original person which get's sent through subspace so realistically we can say the person in location A is the exact same person in location B.

The whole "you die" thing really stems from the whole "do we have a soul" rubbish and how does that soul get transported.

Yep.

And people who get worked up about it don't seem to consider the fact that we're only a fascimile of ourselves, copied from moment to moment, anyway.

E.g.:

I then take all these atoms that were your brain and reassemble them exactly as they were before. This newly assembled brain acts like you, thinks it's you, but it's not *YOU* it's a clone. A copy. The "real you" was lost when the brain became a handul of elements. Because once your brain was no longer brain matter and instead a bunch of atoms neurons were no longer holding memories, or transfering thoughts, or anything like that.

If the real you is a collection of particles placed in a certain order, then the real you is lost every time your brain changes, which it does, thousands of times a second. Which is the real you, the one who's already typed this post or the one who hasn't? The two are totally different arrangements of particles, different by orders of magnitude from the copies produced by a transporter.

The real problem with transporters seems to be a that there is so much information needed to reproduce a consciousness that it can only be recorded on the physical substrate itself, and thus can't be easily stored and replicated like less complex physical systems (Tom Riker exlcuded, I guess). This is of course only a practical difficulty, indeed, one overcome from time to time (that Bashir Bond parody episode) using regular Starfleet technology; sufficiently advanced aliens like V'Ger appear totally capable of storing the total information needed to rebuild either physically or by emulation a human (or Deltan) brain.