Names of the Original Series Starships ?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That would imply that the Constellation has a registry number lower than 1017 then?

The canonical numbers that I know of would indicate the ships were constructed in the order:

NCC 1017 Constellation
NCC 1371 Republic
NCC 1631 Intrepid - IIRC the shot in Court Martial RM contradicts the chart
NCC 1672 Exeter
NCC 1701 Enterprise

NCC 1764 Defiant

I haven't seen THe Ultimate Computer RM, so I don't know the numbers for Hood, Petempkin, Lexington and Excalibur.

Lexington: NCC-1709
Hood: NCC-1703
Potemkin: NCC-1657
Excalibur: NCC-1664

And could we PLEASE stop ragging on Mike Okuda as if he was the fucking Antichrist? Come on.

 

[Vance]

And could we PLEASE stop ragging on Mike Okuda as if he was the fucking Antichrist? Come on.

I'm not, I'm just saying that Okuda's openly admitted reason for selecting numbers and classes in an effort to discredit the tech manual because he once got insulted by a latter from Franz Joseph years ago is frackin' pathetic. Okuda's done a lot of work... but I really find this continual mean-spirited dagger-twisting at a dead man to be disturbing.

And because of Okuda's deliberate choice, registry schemes are now completely random and nigh meaningless. The 'official' registries for the Constitution class range from the 500s through the 2000's now, with MOST of the ships having numbers earlier than the class ship, etc.

I think Okuda's handling of the registrar has been atrocious, even though, in the greater scheme of things, that it's a very minor point compared to the sheer amount of work Okuda has done.

 

[Shaw]

From TOS, we only saw/heard of these (recently active) ships...

Starships:

U.S.S. Constellation NCC-1017 (Doomsday Machine)
U.S.S. Defiant (Tholian Web)
U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701
U.S.S. Excalibur (Ultimate Computer)
U.S.S. Exeter (Omega Glory)
U.S.S. Hood (Ultimate Computer)
U.S.S. Lexington (Ultimate Computer)
U.S.S. Potemkin (Ultimate Computer)​

Unseen Ships:

U.S.S. Carolina (Friday's Child)
U.S.S. Farragut (Obsession)
U.S.S. Intrepid (Court Martial, Immunity Syndrome)
U.S.S. Republic NCC-1371 (Court Martial)
U.S.S. Valiant (A Taste of Armageddon)
U.S.S. Yorktown (Obsession)​

Now if we conclude that Star Ships are Starships (as in Starship Class), then we also have the following registry numbers as part of the Starships list... and if we don't, then those numbers fall into the unseen list.

Those numbers include (from my best read of the list)...

NCC-1709
NCC-1831
NCC-1703
NCC-1672
NCC-1664
NCC-1657
NCC-1718
NCC-1685
NCC-1700​

Now, even if we assume that these are Starships like the Enterprise, we are still unable to match up these numbers with ships. The best we can conclude is that Intrepid is one of the 9 other numbers on that list.

I find it interesting that Carolina is generally missing from almost every fan list (and I consider anyone who wasn't working on TOS originally to be a fan).

I'm not, I'm just saying that Okuda's openly admitted reason for selecting numbers and classes in an effort to discredit the tech manual because he once got insulted by a latter from Franz Joseph years ago is frackin' pathetic. Okuda's done a lot of work... but I really find this continual mean-spirited dagger-twisting at a dead man to be disturbing.

I've never seen any of this stuff being attributed to Okuda... Could we get a direct quote of his frackin' pathetic comment about this letter from Franz Joseph? Or even other continual mean-spirited dagger-twisting comments by him. I'm just curious about what he openly admitted in his own words.

 

[Vance]

Karen Dick discusses it here: http://www.trekplace.com/fj-kdint06.html

An old usenet post which discusses it: http://groups.google.com/group/rec....&lnk=st&q=okuda+franz+joseph#2b06d194281fee47

There was some VERY OLD stuff on rec.arts.startrek from the early 1990s as well, but has fallen off the google radar now.

 

[Vance]

I find it interesting that Carolina is generally missing from almost every fan list (and I consider anyone who wasn't working on TOS originally to be a fan).

Shouldn't be too interesting. The S.S. Carolina is mentioned as a freighter needing help, so wouldn't be a starship of the types the fan-lists usually pay attention to. Given the 'TOS-R' version of the series, she would likely be an Antares type.

 

[Shaw]

Karen Dick discusses it here...

But none of that measures up to the continual mean-spirited dagger-twisting. Nor does it seem to cover what you said Okuda openly admitted was reasoning for selecting numbers and classes. Surely there has to be more than what you just linked to (specially given that Okuda was openly admitting this).

Shouldn't be too interesting. The S.S. Carolina is mentioned as a freighter needing help, so wouldn't be a starship of the types the fan-lists usually pay attention to. Given the 'TOS-R' version of the series, she would likely be an Antares type.

From Friday's Child...

Uhura: Mr. Scott, another distress call... from the U.S.S. Carolina.
Scott: Ignore it.
Uhura: The Carolina is registered in this sector.
Scott: Ignore it. Log it as my order, my responsibility.​

So I'm not getting either the S.S. part or the freighter classification from the episode... if we are going strictly off of TOS, where is this other information coming from?

There was an earlier distress call from a freighter with two convoy ships, but they never identified themselves, and the Enterprise had no information on them. The U.S.S. Carolina was a separate (although most likely faked... though never verified in the episode) distress call. Her classification wasn't given, but the Enterprise had information on her being in that area.

So the first message was from a different (now known to be fake) freighter, the second message was from the unseen (and unclassified) U.S.S. Carolina (which we didn't know for sure was faked).

Assuming that you aren't mixing these two different messages together, where did you get the S.S. from and the ship's classification?

 

[Vance]

Nor does it seem to cover what you said Okuda openly admitted was reasoning for selecting numbers and classes.

Well, the whole story was that Okuda had questioned Franz Joseph in a letter over some choices of illustrations and some other details, and that FJ replied in a snarky 'in character' sort of fan letter (which he had assumed that Trek fans wanted). Okuda took offense at this, and continued to take offense at the letter for some time. (I have no idea what the letter said).

Come his involvement with 'new' Trek, Okuda's work made an effort (somewhat at Roddenberry's behest) to 'discredit' the Technical Manual as a retro-active 'canon'. (Again, this wouldn't be the only case, as much of Roddenberry's 'Rules' for starships were invented primarily to discredit the Technical Manual, and were then promptly ignored.)

So I'm not getting either the S.S. part or the freighter classification from the episode... if we are going strictly off of TOS, where is this other information coming from?

I could have sworn it was an 'SS' designation, but it's been awhile since I've seen the episode. I guess that memory conflation may be an issue, but it seemed unlikely that the Carolina was intended to be a major starship, considering how she's used in the episode.

Granted, I doubt that the episode writer gave it much thought originally anyway. To me, personally, it just makes more sense that she's a registered freighter or other non-capitol ship in the area. It seems unlikely that the Klingons would risk attacking a full-on CA just to hope that another CA would be lured from the planet.

 

[Shaw]

I can understand the it makes sense stuff that most people do (including me), but I've always thought that data collection should be done first... and more importantly, kept independent of data analysis.

That is why when looking at the raw data, I see no real connection to the name Constitution, and NCC-1700 is just a number on a wall with no connection to any other ship. For all we know, the U.S.S. Intrepid could have been NCC-1700 as it had the least amount of repairs left to complete (an opposite, but just as valid, interpretation from Jein's reading of the chart).

But before attempting interpretation, maybe we should make sure we have complete lists of information. I don't think that Joseph, Jein or Okuda did (or truly had the ability to do) a complete collection of the data first before expressing opinions.

Data analysis with incomplete data yields bad results... I don't see any reason to stick with the shortcomings of others in the past when we can fix this type of thing today. Frankly, I think this should have been done before attempting to do the remastered episodes because with incomplete data and bad data analysis, all they would be doing is increasing paradoxes by forcing people's square ideas into a round Trek hole.

As pointed out, absent Stone's chart, we have only two registry numbers for Starship Class ships... NCC-1701 and NCC-1017. That may not be enough to come up with a system, but it seems like enough to rule out systems that don't fit those two numbers (strictly looking at it from a data analysis point of view).

But as I said... data collection first.

 

[Vance]

I can understand the it makes sense stuff that most people do (including me), but I've always thought that data collection should be done first... and more importantly, kept independent of data analysis.

Really tough to do in TOS, since part of the dictates of production in that show was to be as 'casual' as possible with the universe. The vagueries are deliberately there... to try to force the writing on the character interactions instead. (Indeed, this is one lesson that Roddenberry got RIGHT with TOS, and promptly ignored when it came to TNG).

That is why when looking at the raw data, I see no real connection to the name Constitution, and NCC-1700 is just a number on a wall with no connection to any other ship.

Well, it's 'canon solid' (though I'm loathe to rely on canon for anything) as of ST:TMP, to be certain. "Constitution Class" appears on Scotty's technical journals. I can't remember what the text on the display in 'Enterprise Incident' had, unfortunately.

For all we know, the U.S.S. Intrepid could have been NCC-1700 as it had the least amount of repairs left to complete (an opposite, but just as valid, interpretation from Jein's reading of the chart).

Again, this is one thing that strikes me, the NCC-1831 entry seems pretty firm for the Intrepid, though we don't really know what class of ship that the Intrepid really is. (Until TOS-R, of course)

But before attempting interpretation, maybe we should make sure we have complete lists of information. I don't think that Joseph, Jein or Okuda did (or truly had the ability to do) a complete collection of the data first before expressing opinions.

Well, if you ever read 'The John Doe Starship', from which the Okuda Registry stems, you'll cringe at the leaps of logic made. The first is that ALL the ships listed are Constitution class (or variants) and are ALL at the starbase ALL getting repaired at the same time. Compounding this is that Jein's reading of the registries are off (a lot of 18s are read as 16s, etc).

 

[Warped9]

I also say Constitution because, come on, everyone knows
that's the class.

Actually this could be debatable. In TMoST there's a mention of the Enterprise class or something to that effect. The Constitution is mentioned, but not as a class ship. I understand that there was a poorly visibile schematic of a phaser coupling or something onscreen that says Constitution-class on it, but I'm not sure.

And the first time Constitution-class is actually referenced is on Franz Joseph's blueprints, but that ship diverged in so many ways from the Enterprise we saw on screen that its validity can be questioned.

And the idea that FJ was drawing the Constitution and not the Enterprise doesn't wash with me. We all bought that set expecting to see schematics of the ship we knew onscreen and we didn't get that.

Also note that in TWoK (if you accept it) there's a visual reference to Enterpriseclass and that raises an interesting wrinkle.

 

[Red Ranger]

Nice lists, everyone. Here's a thought, though. Does anyone know definitively if the Miranda-class, like Reliant in TWOK, was supposed to be an older or newer starship design? I ask only because in the novellized version, it was affectionately called that old bucket by its crew, I believe. Certainly, its design, being so similar to the Constitution-class, but lacking a lower hull, would indicate it most probably is a contemporaneous design. So pehaps some of the ships mentioned on screen but not shown might be Miranda-class vessels. -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

I also say Constitution because, come on, everyone knows
that's the class.

Actually this could be debatable. In TMoST there's a mention of the Enterprise class or something to that effect. The Constitution is mentioned, but not as a class ship. I understand that there was a poorly visibile schematic of a phaser coupling or something onscreen that says Constitution-class on it, but I'm not sure.

And the first time Constitution-class is actually referenced is on Franz Joseph's blueprints, but that ship diverged in so many ways from the Enterprise we saw on screen that its validity can be questioned.

And the idea that FJ was drawing the Constitution and not the Enterprise doesn't wash with me. We all bought that set expecting to see schematics of the ship we knew onscreen and we didn't get that.

Also note that in TWoK (if you accept it) there's a visual reference to Enterpriseclass and that raises an interesting wrinkle.

Here's another fly in the ointment, pal. In TNG's "The Naked Now," the TOS Enterprise is referred to in onscreen dialogue as Constitution-class! Ahh! -- RR

 

[Vance]

Actually this could be debatable. In TMoST there's a mention of the Enterprise class or something to that effect.

Actually, TMOST screwed up and called it a 'Constellation Class' ship, an error that Bjo Trimble copped to a long time ago. Gene Roddenberry himself signed off on 'Constitution Class' for Lincoln Enterprises. I don't think you can get more official than that.

And the first time Constitution-class is actually referenced is on Franz Joseph's blueprints, but that ship diverged in so many ways from the Enterprise we saw on screen that its validity can be questioned.

Not really. With that logic, you have to say that every different miniature used in the show were all different ships. It's just that FJ had access to the smaller miniatures than the 11 footer.

And the idea that FJ was drawing the Constitution and not the Enterprise doesn't wash with me. We all bought that set expecting to see schematics of the ship we knew onscreen and we didn't get that.

For all practical purposes, for 1975, you did. While you can argue some errors and inconsistancies, I think that it STILL holds out as an amazing job of turning Hollywood sets into a largely workable starship based on next to no information.

I know that it's 'en vogue' for some fans to shit all over FJ and his work, but I think it's utterly ludicrous to compare the first work of its kind ever to what some fans can do 30 years later... Why not lambast Okuda for all the errors in the Encyclopedia and current technical manuals which were supposedly made as backstage materials?

Also note that in TWoK (if you accept it) there's a visual reference to Enterpriseclass and that raises an interesting wrinkle.

I don't know why this is an issue. It was well known that between TMP and TSFS that the refit was called 'Enterprise Class' in much of the background materials, and this was overridden come TNG's pre-production. It's another example of a minor continuity change due to later work.

But the idea of 'if you accept' the fargin' Wrath of Khan' shows a rather absurd level of fanboi elitism, doesn't it? If you're going to ignore the single most successful aspect of Trek, period, when discussing issues of 'canon' and 'continuity', then how you expect to be taken seriously in your arguments?

 

[Vance]

Nice lists, everyone. Here's a thought, though. Does anyone know definitively if the Miranda-class, like Reliant in TWOK, was supposed to be an older or newer starship design?

The powers that be go back and forth on this. The Reliant was originally an Enterprise class ship and meant to be nearly as old as the Enterprise herself. Of course, when the visual direction changed for her to be a new ship, this suddenly introduced a new class of starship.

Some official works, such as the novel, the FASA RPG, Marvel and DC comics, etc, took the Reliant to be an older type of ship, uprated as the Enterprise was. This was pretty much accepted as the 'main theory' up until TNG, when it was declared that the 'Miranda' was a new class of ship in TWOK.

I think that most of the 'fandom' has accepted pre-TWOK Miranda class ships around, though, ignoring the 'official' statement outright (and there's nothing to contradict it).

 

[Shaw]

Not really. With that logic, you have to say that every different miniature used in the show were all different ships. It's just that FJ had access to the smaller miniatures than the 11 footer.

Really?

The Enterprise was portrayed on screen by three different models... the 11 foot, the 33 inch and an 18 inch AMT kit.

Now, I have no doubt that Franz Joseph had access to an 18 inch model (we all did), but I had never heard of him having access to the 33 inch model. One would expect that if he had access to that model that his drawings would show many of the traits of it. Lets take a look...

In the illustration above I have omitted the 11 foot model as it was not one that we are speculating that he had access to. I've included both the blue print and technical manual versions of FJ's drawings. I've also included both MJ's writer's guide illustration, a reconstruction of the plans given to Datin, and a drawing of the 33 inch model that I put together last summer for a visual comparison.

Personally, I get the idea that he was working from mainly the writers guide drawing (that he found in TMoST) with elements from the 18 inch AMT kit. I don't think he had any access to the 33 inch model, nor does it seem like he had any access to the original construction plans given to Datin.

But the idea of 'if you accept' the fargin' Wrath of Khan' shows a rather absurd level of fanboi elitism, doesn't it? If you're going to ignore the single most successful aspect of Trek, period, when discussing issues of 'canon' and 'continuity', then how you expect to be taken seriously in your arguments?

Why can't people discuss this type of thing without everyone jumping the moment alternative ideas are put forward?

I noticed that when I made the simple suggestion that we look at the data rather than worrying about the back story for a moment, people jumped in to defend their beliefs on this matter. I wasn't even putting forward any of my own personal ideas, just wondering if we all looked at the raw data if we would see something different. I wrote out what I considered the back story of the Constellation (and Republic) back in 1991 when I drew up a one-sheet set of plans... and I still happen to like that idea.

But to get bend out of shape and start to take this personally... even on the stuff that has nothing to do with the numbers, seems a little extreme.



I would hate to find out what would happen if you guys found out I hate asparagus... Oops, did I say that out loud?

 

[Warped9]

Actually this could be debatable. In TMoST there's a mention of the Enterprise class or something to that effect.

Actually, TMOST screwed up and called it a 'Constellation Class' ship, an error that Bjo Trimble copped to a long time ago. Gene Roddenberry himself signed off on 'Constitution Class' for Lincoln Enterprises. I don't think you can get more official than that.

And the first time Constitution-class is actually referenced is on Franz Joseph's blueprints, but that ship diverged in so many ways from the Enterprise we saw on screen that its validity can be questioned.

Not really. With that logic, you have to say that every different miniature used in the show were all different ships. It's just that FJ had access to the smaller miniatures than the 11 footer.

And the idea that FJ was drawing the Constitution and not the Enterprise doesn't wash with me. We all bought that set expecting to see schematics of the ship we knew onscreen and we didn't get that.

For all practical purposes, for 1975, you did. While you can argue some errors and inconsistancies, I think that it STILL holds out as an amazing job of turning Hollywood sets into a largely workable starship based on next to no information.

I know that it's 'en vogue' for some fans to shit all over FJ and his work, but I think it's utterly ludicrous to compare the first work of its kind ever to what some fans can do 30 years later... Why not lambast Okuda for all the errors in the Encyclopedia and current technical manuals which were supposedly made as backstage materials?

Also note that in TWoK (if you accept it) there's a visual reference to Enterpriseclass and that raises an interesting wrinkle.

I don't know why this is an issue. It was well known that between TMP and TSFS that the refit was called 'Enterprise Class' in much of the background materials, and this was overridden come TNG's pre-production. It's another example of a minor continuity change due to later work.

But the idea of 'if you accept' the fargin' Wrath of Khan' shows a rather absurd level of fanboi elitism, doesn't it? If you're going to ignore the single most successful aspect of Trek, period, when discussing issues of 'canon' and 'continuity', then how you expect to be taken seriously in your arguments?

I didn't mean this as an attack or to "shit" all over FJ's work. I was just pointing out the fact that the issue was open to debate.

For the record, though, I couldn't care less what FJ or TWoK or TNG "established." I look at the issue from what the TOS writers and creators may or may not have intended. For me the strongest evidence that the ship is Constitution-class is that phaser schematic as purportedly drawn by Matt Jefferies. In my book he carries far more weight than anyone else in regards to the Enterprise, and certainly even more than the almighty TPTB.

I can think and see for myself as opposed to just sucking up whatever a clutch of suits may or may not claim, if you want to get nasty. I addressed the issue raised as opposed to attacking the poster who raised it simply because I may or may not agree with his perspective.

 

[Red Ranger]

Nice lists, everyone. Here's a thought, though. Does anyone know definitively if the Miranda-class, like Reliant in TWOK, was supposed to be an older or newer starship design?

The powers that be go back and forth on this. The Reliant was originally an Enterprise class ship and meant to be nearly as old as the Enterprise herself. Of course, when the visual direction changed for her to be a new ship, this suddenly introduced a new class of starship.

Some official works, such as the novel, the FASA RPG, Marvel and DC comics, etc, took the Reliant to be an older type of ship, uprated as the Enterprise was. This was pretty much accepted as the 'main theory' up until TNG, when it was declared that the 'Miranda' was a new class of ship in TWOK.

I think that most of the 'fandom' has accepted pre-TWOK Miranda class ships around, though, ignoring the 'official' statement outright (and there's nothing to contradict it).

Vance:

To your last point, that's kind of how I reconcile the fact that a Miranda is just a Constitution-class vessel without a lower engineering hull, I think it's called. So I always liked to think of the Miranda as an older vessel, and the Constitution as a newer class with an addition.

Also, to me the Miranda-class looks a bit like a cross between a Constitution-class and a Romulan bird of prey, with a main command body and two nacelles.

Red Ranger

 

[Captain Robert April]

A few points.

TMoST doesn't say anything about what class the Enterprise is, other than the standard "Starship class" and that ships of "the Enterprise's class" have been knocking around for about forty years. Some have interpreted that to mean the Enterprise herself is over forty years old at this point (TOS' second season), I prefer that the class is forty years old, whereas the Enterprise herself isn't quite so ancient (and I really prefer that the term "Starship class" is a bit more open than just specifically referring to the Constitution class, and includes the slightly clunkier class of starship to which we have the Constellation, Republic, Yamato, and possibly Valiant )

The term "Constitution class" first saw print in Bjo Trimble's fan produced version of the Star Trek Concordance (roughly 1969), and also includes the Constitution/Constellation mixup (both designations are used). Since the term almost certainly comes from the schematic in "The Trouble With Tribbles", that's the deciding vote for the Enterprise being a Constitution class ship, and the Constellation designation as being nothing more than a fan's typo.

As for that other ship in "Friday's Child", does nobody remember the SS Dierdre? A mere freighter with a maximum speed of warp two? Did the syndication butchers do that bad of a job on that episode?

 

[Captain Robert April]

And just to offer up something to further muddy the waters....


The top one, of course, needs no introduction, other than to point out that it's based upon Alan Sinclair's drawing, whereas the bottom one is based upon a painstaking examination I did on an AMT 18" model (pre '76 mold muckup). The drawing itself originates from Warped9, but matches up pretty well with what I did myself, so rather than try and scan in a full size drawing on a too-small scanner, I just did the appropriate modifications to his drawing, and there ya have it.

As for the discrepancies in size between the two ships, that's arrived at by matching up the sizes of the two bridges (assuming that both are plug in modules and would, in all likelihood, be identical) and letting the chips fall where they may.

 

[Vance]

Now, I have no doubt that Franz Joseph had access to an 18 inch model (we all did), but I had never heard of him having access to the 33 inch model. One would expect that if he had access to that model that his drawings would show many of the traits of it. Lets take a look...

Looks like he took the bulk of the drawing from the writer's guide picture. I haven't personally done a side-by-side of everything before, so that was neat to see, thanks.

But, the point remained, each of the various Enterprise drawings and miniatures was markedly off in some way, so the 'definitive' one that Franz Joseph made is forgivable in my view, particularly without access to clean masters or the 11 foot model itself.

I noticed that when I made the simple suggestion that we look at the data rather than worrying about the back story for a moment, people jumped in to defend their beliefs on this matter.

Well, again, the argument is coming to 'what's on screen' being definitive. On that score, TWOK seems too hard to ignore, even though pieces have been refuted since then.

I would hate to find out what would happen if you guys found out I hate asparagus... Oops, did I say that out loud?

Two words... 'Veggie Enema'.