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My TOS shuttlecraft (continued)...

^^ This is an interesting approach and not much different from what we've seen with the TFF shuttlecraft as well as some TNG era designs only their impulse drive units were smaller.

Main main concern here is that the vehicle's width overall looks to be dramatically increased. and the only extra room aft would be a narrow passagewy to the exit between the engine mechanicals.

Also you don't need to copy the TOS shuttlecraft's door design for the aft position. That distinctive design seems to have come about because it fit the overall look of the craft from the side. But I felt it didn't work in the aft end so I ditched it.
 
Your absolutely right about that, had I merely taken the time to look closer at your allready posted and very detailed work, I may not have allowd appearance to overwhelm what was possible. The measure twice, cut once, rule of thumb should always apply. It's now obvious to me that moving the impulse drive, as you did so elegantly. Is the only way to overcome, the gradual pinching off of the aft section. As seen in profile.
And still have room for a rear hatch. I also truly admire your new nacelle design. It looks fast.
 
Beating a dead horse-one more time-
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While looking over your awsome floorplans of the Class-F shuttle posted on March 29 2008. I find myself flipflopping on the center rear hatch idea again. I was thinking maybe the center aft hatch concept might still work if the stern inner wall, the one inside the rear of the aft compartment, with the pressure bottles hanging on it. Right where the bottles are hanging, if thats where the aft hatch was. Flush to the stern, cut straight through the slop of the back of the shuttle elimanting the two largest impluse emitters in the center of the drive. Then it might still be possible to do. But it would mean instead of one impulse engine there would be two smaller ones port and starboard of the new hatch and it would mean relocating the pressure bottles probably to the inside aft of the main cabin wall. Which shouldn't be a problem because with the side hatch gone one aft chair could be moved right behind the pilot seat. Leaving room on the aft wall, and a little space where the old chair was, for additional equipment and gear. If this configeration is workable the aft compartment could double as an airlock without changing any square footage of the shuttle. No narrow tunnel exit. Just walk from the aft compatment to the outside in three strides. Please take one more look and see what you think. I could still be wrong about this. Sometimes I can't rap my stubborn mind around an answer untill I build a hard model. But I'm sure you can tell if its feezeable. I respect your work, and look forward to seeing what you think about this.
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I knocked out some more shuttles in paintshop, this time with the measuring grid turned on, more accurate I think, Hope you like.
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^^ Remember to consider where those sliding panels on the access hatch go when open. You still need room for your impulse units.

You see when I moved the impulse units to the underside to allow for an aft access hatch to have some connection with the TAS design I altered the overall shape of the craft to allow for the mechanicals I was moving out of the way. If you just try to add an aft hatch to the Class F design you have to account for where the mechanicals you're displacing have to go.

I'm no engineer by any means but I've tried to grasp and reflect some understanding how mechanical things are supposed to work. I like cool design yet I like it even more when it reflects some manner of design logic.
 
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From a utilization perspective, isn't 2 separate exits a craft this small a major design compromise? Or is this rear door replacing the side door? Even then, there should be a damn good reason to break up engineering space rather than a side wall.
 
To: Warped9 - Wow! ... I'm again impressed with the inexcapable logic of your observations, yeah if for instance, I took a working General Electric J79 Fighter jet engine, cut it in half. Yes it would only take up half as much space as the original, but it would also no longer function as an engine. I've just created 500 pounds of worthlass balast. And if the TOS Enterprise, is the equivalent to our modern day naval vessels. Then she is equipped with, and imploying state of the art technology in her shuttle complement, at least for their time. My assumption, that they could, or would even have, two smaller working impulse engines to suit my needs, isn't supported by TOS cannon, I should have seen this. So any alterations of the shuttle drives should be equivalent in scale to what has been shown to have exsisted at the time. Not that there can't be changes but that a specific parameter is followed. Just as two different, modern day jets might imploy the same engine, but one has the engine slung under the wing, while the other has it housed in it's fuselage. Same engine, but with a different look. I must thank you for that argument, you have convinced me once again.
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To: AJBryant ...Keep writing and posting I love to read the feedback, this site is cool, and so are the people on it. Warped9 has awsome talent!
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To: sojourner ....A great question. You busted me on that same impulse engine mistake Warped9 did. Im a bit slow, but catching on. The idea was to eliminate the side hatch infavor of the rear hatch. I'm not possitive but I think Warped9 is trying to do several things with a redesign. 1-Gain some interior space in the floorplan, 2-Improve entry and egress of the new craft compared with the type-f, 3-Try to introduce a new TOS shuttle class within the size resrictions and within Trek cannon. I think Warped9 is looking at the idea of a Star Trek shuttle from the prospective of an aerospace engineer. At what might be possible given the working parameters. It's a tuff puzzle, but I hope Warped9 continues.
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Damn! I made numerous perspective sketches of this idea before I settled on it, but now that I see it like this I like it even more. Sweet and well done! :techman:

One small detail, though. I don't intend to have the hatch so obviously recessed. When fully closed it will be flush with the exterior hull. It operates similarly to the Galileo's hatch except that it has only one upper sliding panel rather than two and the lower part is a swing-down gangway with fold-out steps. Actually I think this is a better hatch design than the Galileo's because I think one upper sliding panel would form a more secure seal than two panels with a seam in the centre. If I were redesigning the Class F I'd be inclined to go that route because I think it's mechanically simpler and I also think it looks cleaner design wise.

Noah, I gotta ask: what program are you using to render this? And can you do it the other way with black lines on white background?
 
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Although not a technical issue one question still unanswered is regarding the rationale behind the registry numbering of the Enterprise’s shuttlecraft.

If we accepted the initial idea that is referenced in The Making Of Star Trek that the Enterprise is supposed to have seven such vehicles then the numbering makes sense with the Galileo being NCC-1701/7. However somewhere along the way someone reasoned that it was rather very unlikely that the Enterprise could actually accommodate seven such vehicles and subsequently we get a reference to how many shuttlecraft are carried aboard a Constitution-class starship—namely the U.S.S. Exeter in “The Omega Glory”—stating that “all four shuttlecraft” are still aboard. If indeed the Exeter is pretty much exactly like the Enterprise than this is an appreciated and telling bit of information because it raises the question of how could the Galileo have the registry NCC-1701/7 when there are supposed to be only four shuttlecraft aboard.

Well here’s a thought. Perhaps the higher registry reflects the fact that shuttlecraft have been lost over the years (such as we’ve actually witnessed in TOS) and each one replaced with a vehicle having a numerically higher registry.

My thinking could go like this. When the Class F were introduced perhaps the Enterprise was first assigned maybe two such vehicles: NCC-1701/1 and NCC-1701/2. If we accept that NCC-1701/2 is the Columbus then it may be the oldest surviving shuttlecraft aboard (and if we assume there is no shuttlecraft registered NCC-1701/1 still existing aboard). If 1701/1 was lost it could have been replaced with a craft registered 1701/3. Or perhaps both 1 and 2 survive until the Enterprise is assigned two more vehicles registered 1701/3 and 1701/4. The practice of replacing lost vehicles with ones assigned a higher registry continues until we’re in the early part of the five-year voyage and we have the Galileo NCC-1701/7, which is subsequently lost in “The Galileo Seven.” Thus up until that point we could reason that over the years since the vehicles were first introduced the Enterprise has replaced perhaps three lost shuttlecraft. And we simply don’t know and can only speculate what numbers other than 7 and perhaps 2 still exist at this point.

Now a wrinkle arises because after the loss of the Galileo in “The Galileo Seven” we see the Galileo II in “Metamorphosis” is still numbered NCC-1701/7. But by all rights it should have been numbered 1701/8.

:wtf:

We see another shuttlecraft lost in “The Doomsday Machine” only we never learn which number it is (TOS-R notwithstanding). We can only know that it isn’t the Galileo II because we see it later in “The Way To Eden.”

It’s also possible that Starfleet could replace individual shuttlecraft with a newer and/or more advanced unit for unspecified reasons and those new craft could be assigned the same registry as the vehicle replaced. The replaced craft could subsequently be reassigned and re-registered or even scrapped. This could explain why my Class F3 Copernicus is numbered 1701/3 rather than 1701/8 or 1701/9.

Regarding the Galileo II I can only guess that for whatever reason—perhaps a clerical error?—Starfleet assigned the craft the same registry as the one that was lost. Perhaps someone chained to a desk got confused and thought the original Galileo had simply been replaced from the Enterprise rather than destroyed.

And with the thinking given above this is how I rationalize the following:
Columbus NCC-1701/2
Copernicus NCC-1701/3
Magellan NCC-1701/5
Galileo NCC-1701/7

It must also be noted that the Copernicus seen in TAS’ “The Slaver Weapon” was registered NCC-1701/12. But things are even more confusing there because in a panning shot of the hangar deck we can see four suttlecraft like the one seen in “Mudd’s Passion” and one of them is also numbered 1701/12 as well as 1701/4 and no sign of the Copernicus and yet another wholly different design. In that panning shot we also get to see at least six oversized shuttlecraft crammed into the hangar which we know is an impossibilty aboard the “real” Enterprise. What we see in TAS tells me that not only was there no consistency in shuttlecraft designs and their registries but also the implication that shuttlecraft are prone to being lost routinely. Because of the lack of consistency I’m inclined to ignore TAS’ take on shuttlecraft beyond later adapting the three or four distinct designs into something more “real world.”

Another possible explanation exists, however. What if the Enterprise carries service craft (similar to the workbees seen in TMP) and those also have registries? And what if those workpods were numbered 1701/1, 1701/2 and 1702/3, or even simply 1, 2 and 3? Then you could have four shuttlecraft registered 1701/4, 1701/5, 1701/6 and 1701/7. This supports the idea of seeing the Galileio II with the same registry as the previously destroyed Galileo.

I have a problem with this, though, for two reasons. Firstly, I can understand giving a shuttlecraft, a vehicle designed to operate independently at greatly extended range from the mothership (particularly with warp capability), its own registry because it is effectively a compact sized starship. But why would you give a flight registry to a workpod, a craft that is basically the equivalent of a flying forklift? And secondly if we accept the conjectured registry of 1701/2 assigned to the Columbus and 1701/3 assigned to the Copernicus (reflecting the Copernicus 3 seen in TFF) then it thoroughly derails this approach.

From my perspective my former rationale seems more likely than the latter explanation. I also think it seems more “real world."

It would be nice if some archival Matt Jefferies’ document would surface that just happened to list proposed shuttlecraft names and registries he had had in mind, similar to the list of proposed starship names given in The Making Of Star Trek. Barring that we can only speculate.
 
How about a compromise? The Galileo was /7 because it was the seventh craft on the Enterprise, AND there are other craft on board that aren't shuttle-class vehicles.
 
^^ Hmm. I don't think that's very different from what I already said.

But to be clear I'm inclined to think that there are perhaps three or four workpods aboard as well as four shuttlecraft. aridas' very nice Enterprise cross-section gave me the idea where those workpods could be stored two levels down from the flight deck.
 
I can't disagree with your logic, Warped9.

However, I've, personally, always liked the idea of numbering the shuttles with prime numbers:

1701/1 - Columbus
1701/3 - Magellan
1701/5 - Copernicus
1701/7 - Galileo, later Galileo-II

(I switched the order to avoid two 'C' names in a row, which also conveniently maintains the numerical difference between the Copernicus-3 and Galileo-5 in TFF.)

Although I'll totally willingly admit the logic to this is a little muddled. Fuzzy at best.

Perhaps certain types of craft (in this case, Class F shuttles) are odd-numbered to indicate their type without having to ask or look it up, making it easily identifiable from just a readout? The numbers in between could be other craft, if you're so inclined - although I'm sensing you're not and I understand why - or even reserved for a type of craft that the Enterprise does not normally carry. (Such as long-range Class F variants? :p)

To throw another monkey wrench in the logic works, what if shuttle designations are assigned only when the craft is deployed for a mission? For example, a given shuttle might be called Galileo but might only receive a 'mission number' when it is prepped for launch? That might explain a lot of stock shot inconsistencies... :shifty:

Just another option. :)
 
Well, this is a real can of worms... and I doubt we'll all ever agree on a "real" solution. Heck, even if we do, someone else will come along in six months and start the conversational all over again anyway.

However, for ME, I tend to disagree with Warped9's idea that it's not reasonable for embarked craft to carry unique registries. Mainly because... well... the Enterprise's craft DON'T carry "unique registries."

We know that Galileo and Galileo II both carried the same "registry," which was simply an indication that they were "subcraft 7" assigned to a mothership (that would be 1701, the Enterprise).

I think that the idea of the "* / #" concept being that the # represents the subcraft assigned to the *-identified major craft makes the most sense.

Why would you care about the identification of, say a "work bee?" Well... in order to answer that, you need to think about the purpose of the identification marking. Why are they there?

Well, first off... they're there to identify where they're from. Every ship carried by, or assigned to, Enterprise will carry Enterprise's contact code. If you find a "lost pod" or a "lost shuttle" you know where it came from.

Second, if you have, say, four Work Bees performing emergency hull-patching, and you know that Scotty is in 1701/1, and Ensign Redshirt is in 1701/3, you know who's in which one, by simple visual reference without needing "computer overlays" to tell you. (And, of course, you can safely bet that Ensign Redshirt is going to die horribly moments later, while Scotty will miraculously be left unharmed.)

Now, about "transponder codes," each embarked craft would transmit a code, obviously (since visual identification in space is often not an option due to distance or inadequate lighting). But there's no reason for these ships to have unique identifying transponder codes. They just "parent" by transmitting the Enterprise's code, with a suffix.

This makes so much sense to me that it's hard for me to understand why anyone would ever so much as think of anything else.

Of course, every shuttle, every pod, every bee, shipped from a production facility will have a unique serial number, too... but just like aircraft carry "tail numbers" and also have mfg S/N's, with the manufacturer serial number being a far more complicated and unwieldy number (and thus seldom used except when shipping a craft back to depot!) this seems to be the most likely scenario to me.

What arguments against this do any of you see? Maybe I'm just missing something?
 
^^ Actually your arguments are reasonable. And we could have it somewhat both ways: the workpods could simply be identified as 1, 2 and 3 even though they are actually 1701/1, 1701/2 and 1701/3 and then you have the four shuttlecraft following sequentially. This would mean that the shuttlecraft would have to be 1701/4, 1701/5, 1701/6 and 1701/7, and so you couldn't have a Columbus 1701/2 and Copernicus 1701/3. That also makes TFF's Copernicus 3 out of place if you happen to consider it. Now there's no reason I couldn't do it this way since the Columbus and Copernicus don't actually have any "officially" established numbers and the fourth shuttlecraft's name is really up to subjective preference.

And so you could have:
Columbus NCC-1701/4
Magellan NCC-1701/5
Copernicus NCC-1701/6
Galileo NCC-1701/7

Actually upon reflection the above scenario does seem to make the most sense. And if anyone wishes to suggest alternative names to Magellan then please feel free.

This is simply one of those things not thoroughly considered back in the day right up there with the U.S.S. Conatellation being numbered 1017 instead of 1710. :rolleyes:


Thinking about it further I really should design a TOS era workpod.
 
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^^ Actually your arguments are reasonable. And we could have it somewhat both ways: the workpods could simply be identified as 1, 2 and 3 even though they are actually 1701/1, 1701/2 and 1701/3 and then you have the four shuttlecraft following sequentially. This would mean that the shuttlecraft would have to be 1701/4, 1701/5, 1701/6 and 1701/7, and so you couldn't have a Columbus 1701/2 and Copernicus 1701/3. That also makes TFF's Copernicus 3 out of place if you happen to consider it. Now there's no reason I couldn't do it this way since the Columbus and Copernicus don't actually have any "officially" established numbers and the fourth shuttlecraft's name is really up to subjective preference.

And so you could have:
Columbus NCC-1701/4
Magellan NCC-1701/5
Copernicus NCC-1701/6
Galileo NCC-1701/7

Actually upon reflection the above scenario does seem to make the most sense. And if anyone wishes to suggest alternative names to Magellan then please feel free.

This is simply one of those things not thoroughly considered back in the day right up there with the U.S.S. Conatellation being numbered 1017 instead of 1710. :rolleyes:
One other way of looking at how the numbers are assigned has occurred to me as I've been considering where the various craft would be parked (in my version of the ship).

Basically, with my "nacelle pylons meet in the middle" approach, this subdivides the hangar bay into a port and a starboard area.

We know that the Constitution-class TOS cruiser carried 4 Galileo-type shuttlecraft. I also like the Petri Blumquist (sp?) concept for workbees under the fantail "red hatch" but I'm not beholden to his overall concept.

In my case, what I've decided to do is have the underside fantail hatch open to a "corridor" which leads directly forward to the cargo bays (something like what we saw in TMP, but separate from the main landing bay). On either side of this "corridor are three workbee docking stations (along with some plug-n-play attachments for each), for six total bees. The bees enter or exit through that hatch but we also have access for cargo loading, since they're not blocking the path.

Similarly, on the deck above, we have parking for two shuttles per side, two port and two starboard. There's also the big "maintenance/prep" region which includes the lower station of the turntable/elevator, where you can swap shuttles around if needed.

Here's my scheme: On the port side, you have shuttles #1 and #2, and go down a deck and you get to work bees #3 and #4 and #5. Continue to the starboard side and you have shuttles #6 and #7, and go down a deck to bees #8, #9, and #10. Any craft temporarily attached to Enterprise would carry numbers #11 or higher.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
Good thoughts, Cary. I tend to agree.

Warped9, I think I agree with your last summary.

And I'd encourage you not to consider TFF in what you're doing here. The Galileo was numbered '5' there after all instead of '7', so if the TOS ship even had a Copernicus, I see no reason why it should have to be '3' there. Although I do like numbering it '5' to keep the number distance the same, but then we'd end up with two 'C's in a row again.

Actually upon reflection the above scenario does seem to make the most sense. And if anyone wishes to suggest alternative names to Magellan then please feel free.

I started to suggest 'Leonardo da Vinci' or 'Leonardo' - I believe one of the old Gold Key books had a shuttle so named in it.

This is simply one of those things not thoroughly considered back in the day right up there with the U.S.S. Conatellation being numbered 1017 instead of 1710. :rolleyes:

*shudder*

A pet peeve of mine.

Thinking about it further I really should design a TOS era workpod.

Aye, you should. ;)
 
^^ I was also considering the red rectangular "hatch" under the fantail as the exit/entry access point for the workpods.

The rest of what you're proposing works, but it seems a bit involved for my preference. Yet your distinctive layout is yours and cannot be faulted.
 
Thinking about it further I really should design a TOS era workpod.
There are a number of MJ sketches of "space trucks" to consider and there's also something about Lazurus' domed saucer ship that suggests ideas to me.
 
The one 'bubble' sketch by Jefferies could make a fine work pod... or something that merges ideas of that with the prop of Lazarus's ship being rearranged for 'real world' production.
 
Maybe the names for shuttlecraft were unofficial or captain's discretion. IOW, they are "boats" and not ships and therefore do not have registered names to go with their tail numbers.

And so when NCC-1701/7 gets replaced, Kirk has it named Galileo II in honor of the two men lost and as a reminder of the perils involved in its use.
 
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