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My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor (spoilers)

^^Well, I think much of the US citizenry has seen the consequences of uninformed decisions and is getting a lot more involved in the democratic process this year. So there's hope.

Unfortunately, there's still a lot of ignorance. I was horrified by some of the comments I saw from West Virginia voters, about not voting for Obama because they thought he was a Muslim or were "tired of Husseins." I'm sure they weren't representative, but still, when people are doing something as important as voting based on such gravely ignorant and distorted views of things, that's just scary. Voting is a right, but it's also a responsibility; it carries an obligation to become informed about an issue or candidate before you cast your vote.

But the problem with living in such a free society is that people begin to take their freedoms and rights for granted, and lose sight of the responsibilities and hard work that go with them.

And what this has to do with Janeway or Before Dishonor is beyond me...
 
That makes discussions also interesting - the unpredictability where this may lead. At least we are not talking about beer or how best to bake pastries. :)

It is still relevant to Star Trek and is at least somewhat connected to books.
 
Baerbel, the second Romulan war, caused by the "Sisko lie", was mentioned in Stone Cold Truths by Zak Kebron in Tales From the Dominion War.

Unfortunately, there's still a lot of ignorance. I was horrified by some of the comments I saw from West Virginia voters, about not voting for Obama because they thought he was a Muslim or were "tired of Husseins."

Whenever people pull ot the Barack Hussein Obama card, I just ask, "what about King Hussein of Jordan, our staunch ally?" Unfortunately, it ususally just generates blank stares.
 
Trent, and others, have been consistently referring to Janeway's death as the pointless assimilation, rather than the destruction of the Borg ship, as I saw it.. How do you see the stuff at the end then?

Honestly, like Vixen, I didn't remember it (which says something in and of itself), and I didn't have access to the book until the weekend so couldn't verify the scene (not that I disbelieved Christopher, but I wanted to see it for myself). Having now done so... my opinion hasn't changed much. Yes, the submerged personality of Janeway emerges for a moment to punch a hole in the firewall and let the virus in (guess Seven should have used a Mac to upload it; those seem to work much better). But Janeway's disembodied 'presence' is about a page in length, little more than an echo of her former self, and not even told from her pespective (with the suggestion that there might not be a perspective per se to even write from). And the converse of this scene is that, rather than being snuffed out when 'absorbed' by the collective, Janeway's awareness persisted, trapped beneath the weight of the Collective, and she bore mute and helpless witness to her body, her knowledge and memory being used to slaughter thousands of fellow officers and imperil billions on Earth. Rather than her last moments being terrifying and torturous, Janeway spent her last days in a state of perpetual psychological agony (I note the use of the word 'howling' to describe Janeway's presence when Seven finally manages to find the sliver of psyche that still exists). So the price of this brief moment of heroic extertation of willpower, as you say, is even more extensive victimization; note a particularly good trade-off, if you ask me. And I would still consider the first death to be the 'true' one, since it basically marks the end of Katherine Janeway as a character with any volition or agency, except for a single (and apparently quite forgettable, although I admit at this point I was thoroughly sick of the book) moment, like an echo, later on, which needed the assistance of Seven to manifest itself besides. So, no, I still think the character got the ass-end of the stick here.

You can't condemn a democracy if its citizenry is uninformed and this incapable of making an informed decision as an electorate.

Sure you can. You can condemn them for being uninformed, particularly when it's a deliberate condition brought about through chest-pounding, faith-based jingoism, mixed in with a cowardly repeal of critical faculties and civil liberties in exchange for false sense of security, a willingness to remain in the dark and social sanctions for those who dare question authority. George Bush was one of the most reviled men on the planet even before the 2004 elections, and there was a great deal of opposition internally, so there's no excuse for them to say 'we didn't know' now. They didn't want to know; they were too busy 'rallying around the flag' and such other bullshit. I've never understood why voting is a right that carries no concomittant responsibilities or accountability.

As to how this pertains to the Trek verse... not directly related to ItPM, but I recall after Articles... had come out and the first cracks began to emerge in the Tezwa cover story, I had speculated that because the Federation is assumed to be, and probably is overall, a truly transparent, well-intentioned and accountable form of government, Federation society is not habituated to questioning the actions of its government the way we are; the critical muscles of a democratic society, the intellegentsia and journalistic establishments, are atrophied, at least when it comes to the idea of internal conspiracies and malfeasance. The people of the Federation can make a claim to be genuinely uninformed, because, unlike us, they have no real history or cause to suspect that their government is or would want to lie to them. The real test comes when they'll find out, if they'll demand accountability and reform; which is why I was kind of dissapointed that Graniv didn't blow the thing wide open when she found out (crimes allowed to fester in secret will merely spawn more), though at least she, at the civilian staff and the Palais who were informed, were clearly torn by the decision they had to make, as was Sisko about his (it remains to be seen whether the higher-ups who sanctioned his actions were similarly ill-at-ease with themselves; they seemed pretty smug and unconcerned in Hollow Men).

ETA:

Whenever people pull ot the Barack Hussein Obama card, I just ask, "what about King Hussein of Jordan, our staunch ally?" Unfortunately, it ususally just generates blank stares.

Interesting piece of Trek trivia: Hussein made a cameo appearance in the VOY episode "Investigations", back when he was still the Crown Prince. I seem to recall he also used to play Warhammer 40,000. "One of us..."

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
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Baerbel, the second Romulan war, caused by the "Sisko lie", was mentioned in Stone Cold Truths by Zak Kebron in Tales From the Dominion War.

actually, he mentioned the Third Romulan War...

Thank you, both of you. I have to read that story again.

Hm, I am already wondering when the next Romulan War will start in "present day" books. I am also hoping that the Selelvian War will be covered somewhere.
 
In regards to Trent Roman's post a few up, I was also so sick of Before Dishonor that I was just looking to end the reading as soon as I possibly could. The way I felt about reading it is summed up by the phrase "I'll always love you, but there will be times that I won't like you." I'll always love reading PAD's New Frontier novels, and I'll always like him as a person. But I think it'll take a long while before I could ever pick up BD again.

And that also applies to the editors at Pocket Books. On the whole, I think they've done a terrific job with Trek. I just think they had a major brain fart in regards to Resistance and especially Before Dishonor.
 
And that also applies to the editors at Pocket Books. On the whole, I think they've done a terrific job with Trek. I just think they had a major brain fart in regards to Resistance and especially Before Dishonor.

I used to read all the TOS books they put out year ago. Now, nada.
 
And that also applies to the editors at Pocket Books. On the whole, I think they've done a terrific job with Trek. I just think they had a major brain fart in regards to Resistance and especially Before Dishonor.

I used to read all the TOS books they put out year ago. Now, nada.

Well, different editors were responsible, IIRC most of the not-Shatnerverse TOS related books (Crucible, Constellations) were edited by Marco Palmieri, while the TNG Relaunch is edited by Margaret Clark.
 
And that also applies to the editors at Pocket Books. On the whole, I think they've done a terrific job with Trek. I just think they had a major brain fart in regards to Resistance and especially Before Dishonor.

I used to read all the TOS books they put out year ago. Now, nada.

Really? What TOS books are there out now? (I would've said Vanguard, but that's separate, right...?)

And I wasn't here when it happened and had almost forgotten about it, but: Congratulations on your ascension to the Green Zone, kimc! I think your assignment is perfect. :techman:
 
Recent non-Vanguard TOS books include the Errand of Fury trilogy by Kevin Ryan, the Crucible trilogy by David R. George III, the short-story anthology Constellations, Burning Dreams by Margaret Wander Bonanno, The Empty Chair by Diane Duane, the Mere Anarchy eBook miniseries, and the Vulcan's Soul trilogy by Josepha Sherman & Susan Shwartz.
 
Ah.

What exactly about the new TOS books do you not like, kimc? I enjoyed all of the ones out of that list that I've read.

I interpreted kimc post in the way that she read and enjoyed the TOS anniversary books, but isn't to thrilled about the recent (TNG) books. Could be wrong though.
 
I find it worrying when I read reports that only a minority of US school children can point out on the map where Europe is, where Iraq is, where Afghanistan is.
Yeah, the problem with that is the fact that (at least where I went to school) they show you all of that stuff once in like 3rd or 4th grade, and then just assume from that point on that you know where all of this stuff is. I know I had no idea where the UK was until about 5 or 6 years ago (I'm 20 now to give you an idea how old I was) when I met a bunch of Brits while playing a video game online. Hell, I didn't even know where China was until 2 or 3 years ago when I first started getting interested in Asian cultures. And keep in mind I found all of this stuff out by looking up where it was online on my own.
 
And keep in mind I found all of this stuff out by looking up where it was online on my own.

As a teacher and school librarian, I'll point out that the purpose of education is not to fill a child's head with facts, but to equip them with the essential elements required to ask questions, challenge things that seem wrong, and form their own investigative strategies - to realize when they have a need for accurate information, and how to locate it, sort it, select it, synthesize it and evaluate results.

For example, how did you know you could trust the online map you found?
 
I made sure to use a reliable source like Encarta or some such thing.

Exactly. And had it been on CD-ROM, or in a print atlas, you'd have probably checked the copyright date.

So your education worked. ;)

There was a very funny web page (and not funny in a good way) about Captain James Cook, which used to be on a Canadian Public Libraries online research page for kids. It contained many gross inaccuracies, and even managed to not mention his voyage to Australia. But it was there for years before some US educators were finally able to convince the library to change it. The point being that the source seemed like it should be reliable, being a public library, and no doubt many desperate students (and their frantic parents) plagiarized that info into their last-minute school projects over many years. Savvy kids might have gone to an Australian or UK government site to investigate Cook.
 
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