My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor (spoilers)

[Darth_Pazuzu]

I know that Peter David has taken quite a bit of flak on this board for what he did with the character of Kathryn Janeway in his recent TNG novel Before Dishonor. However...in a way, don't you think that it's kind of the ultimate karmic payback for messing with the timeline as radically as she did in the VOY finale Endgame?

Just a thought...

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

I know that Peter David has taken quite a bit of flak on this board for what he did with the character of Kathryn Janeway in his recent TNG novel Before Dishonor. However...in a way, don't you think that it's kind of the ultimate karmic payback for messing with the timeline as radically as she did in the VOY finale Endgame?

No. A) That wasn't the same Janeway, a fact that people seem continously oblivious to (the elder Janeway, the one who messed with the timeline, got her come-uppance); and B) I don't see any karmic irony between radically altering timelines and being helplessly sucked into the Borg while Q stands there mocking her. Very different things.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JeremyW]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

I must admit, out of all the Trek books I've read, nothing has been more vague and cryptic as to the fate of Kathryn Janeway as was depicted in Before Dishonor. Now don't get me wrong: I'm one of the few that liked the book for what it was, and I know that Janeway's fate will be revealed in a later story (most people's bets are on Destiny), but yeah, my mind's boggled as to why this happened at this particular moment of the larger narrative. I have some ideas, but they're so incoherent at the moment that I don't even buy what's up there...I'm going to have to to defer until a later date, but I can say for certainty that what happened to Janeway was definitely more than just a 24th Century Way of saying, "Up yours" by the Q. All I can say that just like the Borg 'evolving', I believe that Janeway's 'evolving' as well, much like Sisko did at the end of What You Leave Behind.

 

[Christopher]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

A) That wasn't the same Janeway, a fact that people seem continously oblivious to (the elder Janeway, the one who messed with the timeline, got her come-uppance)

Yes, it was the same Janeway. True, it was Admiral Janeway who proposed the plan... but it was Captain Janeway who decided to follow it, even if she did tack on the destruction of the transwarp hub into the bargain. That makes Captain J. at least an accomplice.

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

^ No, it wasn't. It was two different individuals. You could tell because they occupied different space. The one who committed the crime was the older one, the one with an additional twenty-odd years of experiences and development (for better or worse) than her younger counterpart. She changed the past. Captain Janeway did nothing but seize an opportunity that presented itself in, well, the present. You can't very well say that Captain Janeway had a moral responsibility to preserve events that hadn't even occured yet. You can't serious suggest that the temporal prime directive is also an ethical injunction to defend predestination; the very idea is abhorrent. Besides, the moment Admiral Janeway travelled back she created a new timeline; contemporary Janeway was never in a position to change that, merely take whatever opportunities presented themselves.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

^ No, it wasn't. It was two different individuals. You could tell because they occupied different space.

Don't be disingenuous. You know perfectly well that I mean the captain shared complicity with the admiral, not that they were the same individual.

The one who committed the crime was the older one, the one with an additional twenty-odd years of experiences and development (for better or worse) than her younger counterpart. She changed the past. Captain Janeway did nothing but seize an opportunity that presented itself in, well, the present. You can't very well say that Captain Janeway had a moral responsibility to preserve events that hadn't even occured yet.

Okay, then let's just say I was disappointed for story reasons that she made the decision. I felt from the very beginning that the "quest for home" angle was a mistake, that it would be a weakness of the series. For seven years, I wanted the producers to keep their initial promise that the quest for home would eventually be set aside in favor of embracing the wonders of the Delta Quadrant. I thought it would be far more interesting to see them building a new life in a new frontier than to watch them running back home to mommy. For one brief, shining moment, Harry Kim stood up and said what I'd been yelling at the screen (at least in my mind) for seven years, and the rest of the crew agreed with him, and I was happy. But in the very next act, it turned out to be a fakeout and they went right back to the same old warped priority of the quest for home overriding everything else.

 

[Elemental]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

I know you're speaking about two different things - namely, what the characters would reasonably desire (to go home) vs what you feel would be interesting from a story point of view (to explore a very alien Delta Quadrant) - but I don't think anyone can fault the characters for desiring to choose a road that offers them a possibility of getting home. I personally, liked this moral quandry of whether or not Janeway was commiting an immoral act and whether her desire to fulfill the wishes of her crew had become more important to her than the Federation at large. I really enjoyed the pragmatic Janeway vs the still ideological Janeway. But in the end they were able to have their cake and eat it to, just with a larger sacrifice than anticipated.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

Okay, then let's just say I was disappointed for story reasons that she made the decision. I felt from the very beginning that the "quest for home" angle was a mistake, that it would be a weakness of the series. For seven years, I wanted the producers to keep their initial promise that the quest for home would eventually be set aside in favor of embracing the wonders of the Delta Quadrant. I thought it would be far more interesting to see them building a new life in a new frontier than to watch them running back home to mommy. For one brief, shining moment, Harry Kim stood up and said what I'd been yelling at the screen (at least in my mind) for seven years, and the rest of the crew agreed with him, and I was happy. But in the very next act, it turned out to be a fakeout and they went right back to the same old warped priority of the quest for home overriding everything else.

I sense a big fat clue as to what Places of Exile will be...

 

[Lindley]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

Oh, geez, I didn't know Janeway had a "fate" in BD......watch the spoilers in thread titles, okay?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

I know that Peter David has taken quite a bit of flak on this board for what he did with the character of Kathryn Janeway in his recent TNG novel Before Dishonor. However...in a way, don't you think that it's kind of the ultimate karmic payback for messing with the timeline as radically as she did in the VOY finale Endgame?

Just a thought...

I'm not sure it was an "ultimate karmic payback". Maybe I'm not getting it. Could you explain how exactly it was a karmic payback? If Before Dishonor involved Janeway somehow leading to the rise of the Borg, then I might agree.

As it is, I'm not sure she's gone. Of the many issues I have with not just Before Dishonor (and indeed, Resistance) this is one of the major ones, IMO.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

Okay, then let's just say I was disappointed for story reasons that she made the decision. I felt from the very beginning that the "quest for home" angle was a mistake, that it would be a weakness of the series. For seven years, I wanted the producers to keep their initial promise that the quest for home would eventually be set aside in favor of embracing the wonders of the Delta Quadrant. I thought it would be far more interesting to see them building a new life in a new frontier than to watch them running back home to mommy. For one brief, shining moment, Harry Kim stood up and said what I'd been yelling at the screen (at least in my mind) for seven years, and the rest of the crew agreed with him, and I was happy. But in the very next act, it turned out to be a fakeout and they went right back to the same old warped priority of the quest for home overriding everything else.

I sense a big fat clue as to what Places of Exile will be...

I didn't even think of that one, but after reading that post, I think you're right, Bill. Makes me look forward to it even more.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

Oh, geez, I didn't know Janeway had a "fate" in BD......watch the spoilers in thread titles, okay?

I agree. If I hadn't already read this book, I would be upset, too. Fixing thread titles...

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

Re: My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor

Thanks, Emh. Sorry, my bad!

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

I don't think it was a karmic pay-back. From an in-universe explanation I would say that it was merely over confidence in her own abilities and in the belief that she was going to live at least long enough to be Future Janeway's age.

From an out of universe explanation I'd say it was just an attempt to let Janeway go out in style. Nemesis showed us that she had become an admiral and the Relaunch showed us her second in command becoming Voyager's captain. Without being on a ship, she could basically only play the Admiral that gives commands, or discusses big issues with other admirals -- kind of like what she was doing in the A Time To series. Both on Screen Canon and TrekLit wrote her out of a purpose.

The only other captain to be written out of their purpose would be Krik. It's true that Sisko went to live with the Prophets but he came back in the book series and is living on Bajor which is right next to Deep Space Nine. He could influence events on DS9 easily, as well as continue to be Bajor's Emissary. Take a look at Captain Kirk. In The Motion Picture Kirk was an admiral but got demoted back down to Captain pretty quickly. Otherwise they would have had to stretch credibility getting him into movies or do stories without Kirk. Then when TPTB decided to focus on the TNG crew they ended up killing off Kirk, since he was most likely dead in the time line.

Now, I'm not saying it's right. Obviously a lot of people didn't like Kirk's final farewell, either. But when a character loses it's purpose the writer(s) either have to give them a new purpose, or write them off. Otherwise they're just sort of dead weight dragging the other characters down. This doesn't happen an awful lot in Trek because the main characters usually retain their "I'm X Officer position on Starship Y" Identity forever.

 

[kimc]

But when a character loses it's purpose the writer(s) either have to give them a new purpose, or write them off. Otherwise they're just sort of dead weight dragging the other characters down. This doesn't happen an awful lot in Trek because the main characters usually retain their "I'm X Officer position on Starship Y" Identity forever.

You don't have to kill a character in order to write them off. If they didn't want to use Janeway in future novels they could have had her retire from Starfleet to work as a civilian scientist, care for a sick mother or any number of things.

 

[JoeZhang]

Both on Screen Canon and TrekLit wrote her out of a purpose.

I don't think this was gave this any more consideration than "this would be a neat cameo for fans". The idea that she was made an admiral to "write her out" doesn't make any sense to me. Write her out of what?

 

[LightningStorm]

But when a character loses it's purpose the writer(s) either have to give them a new purpose, or write them off. Otherwise they're just sort of dead weight dragging the other characters down. This doesn't happen an awful lot in Trek because the main characters usually retain their "I'm X Officer position on Starship Y" Identity forever.

You don't have to kill a character in order to write them off. If they didn't want to use Janeway in future novels they could have had her retire from Starfleet to work as a civilian scientist, care for a sick mother or any number of things.

Or, even if killing her off was the choice, I'd question why such a decision would be made for a VOYAGER character to be killed off in a TNG story. Perhaps this is some inherent (if accidental) problem with TNG, it is where other series characters go to die. Since Kirk died there too, and (controversy warning!!) Trip kinda died there too, sorta, until it was undone. Maybe they'll make up for it by killing Picard in DS9 or Voyager and Sisko in New Frontier (that'd be a kicker).

**Noting that I realize she wasn't necessarily killed in Before Dishonor, but what did happen to her was ridiculously large-scale and lasting even if she lives.

 

[kimc]

Perhaps this is some inherent (if accidental) problem with TNG, it is where other series characters go to die.

Good point. I wonder what is up with that?

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Drat. You've uncovered the hidden conspiracy.

 

[Therin of Andor]

You don't have to kill a character in order to write them off. If they didn't want to use Janeway in future novels they could have had her retire from Starfleet to work as a civilian scientist, care for a sick mother or any number of things.

Gosh that event would sell lots of novels!