Most significant additions to lore in LitVerse and the things you wish were canon

In away, Collateral Damage was more like Turnabout Intruder in terms of series finale.

Yeah To Lose The Earth is still to come out, and while it maybe Voyager’s series finale (which when you think about it, since Voyager’s post-series books started, only 2 authors helmed that series, with different characters crossing to other series), it won’t be a finale for the entire novel verse. Architects of Infinity was set in August 2382, whereas CD was around December 2386-January 2387, so unless TLTE jumps Voyager by almost 5 years, Voyager is still a long way from the end.

 

Yeah, Voyager has fallen behind in years. At most it would be a finale for the Voyager book plot threads. Voyager, while it is in the same universe plot wise as the TNG and DS9 novels, is kind of it's own thing in many regards. Outside of characters like Tuvok being on the Titan, it has it's own plot threads that could potentially be tied up in "To Lose the Earth". I wouldn't expect it to clean everything up---just some of the major hanging threads. Like "Collateral Damage" did for Section 31 and Picard's involvement. And it even provided a closing of sorts for the Borg Invasion. Though there are still major outstanding issues like the many goings on with the Typhon Pact--and Data's resurrection that seemed like there was some intent on continuing that storyline (though I guess there's nothing open ended in a major way for Data after he helped bring down Section 31).

But that still leaves Deep Space Nine. While more closely tied to TNG than Voyager, DS9, like Voyager, had it's own stories unique to that series that could use some closure.

As for New Frontier? Well, I think that's finished now. Peter David left the door open in The Returned for future stories but I'd say it's almost certain we'll never see another NF story at this point.

 

I'd add this stuff to my list too.

The biggest things I would discard if I could, was pretty much everything DRGIII did with the DS9 characters after the time skip, I can't think of a single change he made that I liked. I haven't read any of the DS9 books past The Fall, so my feelings are based just on the Typhon Pact and The Fall books.

 

Everything from Section 31: Control but almost nothing from Destiny, although i really like most of the works from David Mack, the Caeliar are a fascinating species and it was really well written.

But i really hate the way they were connected to the origin of the Borg and how the novels made the Borg (and their queen, which shouldn't have been there from the beginning, as well as assimilation of lifeforms) too much into being downright evil instead of just being alien and uncaring.

Another issue about this, which i don't like is, that humans are directly tied to the origin of the Borg and the Borg are way too young. They should have been around for hundred thousands or even millions of years imo.

With all this said, i hate that it practically retcons the First Contact/Voyager Borg into what they always were like (even during "Q, Who?" and "Best Of Both Worlds").

 

It wasn't about "evil," and it didn't originate with the novels. The catalyst was Voyager: "Endgame" and the destruction of the Borg's transwarp hub. Before then, it made sense that the Borg were relatively uncaring about the Federation's existence. It was a very remote, relatively small territory from their perspective, advanced enough to be worth attempting to assimilate but a low priority on a galactic scale. Once Voyager destroyed one of their major transwarp hubs, though, that escalated Starfleet from a minor nuisance to an existential threat. And assimilation had already failed twice. Thus, it was only natural that the Borg would escalate their tactics against the Federation. All the novels did was explore the logical consequences of what Trek canon had set up.

If they were that old, they would've long since assimilated the entire galaxy. And while the Borg Queen did claim in First Contact that the Borg had been around for "thousands of centuries," it was stated in "Dragon's Teeth" that they only held a handful of star systems by the 1480s CE. So the canonical evidence is inconsistent.

The novels didn't do that, the canon did. First Contact explicitly stated that the Queen had been present on the cube in "The Best of Both Worlds." And Annika Hansen was assimilated by FC-style Borg in 2356, nearly a decade before "Q Who." Many of the other liberated drones seen in VGR had been assimilated even earlier than that. The retcons to the Borg were always quite obviously meant to apply retroactively, to be the way the Borg had always been.

Anyway, I reconciled the TNG-style Borg with the FC/VGR-style Borg in Greater than the Sum. I established that the Collective used both incubated drones and assimilated drones, that the incubated kind were more common out on the fringes of their territory and thus were the first encountered by the Federation, and that the attrition from the Species 8472 war had required them to use assimilation heavily to replenish their numbers, which was why we only saw assimilated drones in the Delta Quadrant.

 

Hmm, interesting. I didn't really have a problem with the later DS9 books. They did resolve a few lingering plot lines (i.e. the Ascendants plot line) though others were created. I just wish there was at least one final DS9 book to tie up some of the major loose ends at least.

Yeah, I agree with you there. The Borg were adaptable. It seems to make sense that once Voyager destroyed what we are told is a major hub the Federation would go from being a tasty meal to add to their Collective to an actual threat to their existence. They would adapt accordingly and realized the Federation wasn't worth the trouble and they were better off eradicating the Federation. After all, sometimes it's better just to cut your losses and the Borg were all about taking the most efficient action.

I liked that the incubated drones were explained. One of the things I like about novels is when they reconcile inconsistencies in what was on screen. And many times they actually make sense in story. Though this isn't so much an inconsistency. They just never mentioned the incubated drones again--but there was nothing that said it wasn't done. The focus just shifted to assimilation.

Novels can't generally be inconsistent with canon. But what they can do is take things that are inconsistent with canon and offer an explanation and even reconcile the inconsistencies.

Though I get some of what @Unimatrix Q is saying. I too loved the early portrayal of the Borg in "Q, Who?" They actually seemed more dangerous and even creepy. They were somewhat demystified, esp. in Voyager. And I have mixed feelings about the Queen myself. I mean, in some ways it makes sense. The Borg were always portrayed as a collective, a hive mind. And every hive needs a queen. But it made them seem less dangerous somehow. I really enjoyed the Enterprise episode "Regeneration" because it seemed to bring the Borg back to basics. There was no queen there and by necessity Archer and his crew never learned who they really were (and at the same time it actually provided an in story explanation of how some in the Federation were aware of them even though many in Starfleet were not by the 24th century).

But I absolutely loved the Destiny trilogy (and the books leading up to Destiny were good too). I know as a fan I was always curious how they began. Now maybe it was a bit obvious to use humans as the source, but it might explain how the Borg appeared human-like even in "Q, Who?" from an organic perspective---and maybe the Borg's heightened interest in humanity in particular (even more so than the Federation in general--after all they repeatedly tried to assimilate Earth). I was riveted by all 3 books and the various stories in the Destiny trilogy. It simultaneously explained the Borg's origins and their ending and gave us a fascinating new species with the Caeliar. A species that transcended both organic and machine. I give David Mack a lot of kudos for just the Caeliar alone.

 

Yes, of course, but it makes no sense to claim that was a change that happened after BOBW in-universe, when there's abundant evidence in VGR that the Borg were always like that long before BOBW or "Q Who." That's like assuming, say, that the Federation didn't exist until it was mentioned in "Arena," or that Kirk changed his middle name after "Where No Man." The whole point of a retcon is that it's retroactive -- it's new information for the audience, but it's treated as if it's always been true in-universe.

And it's unfair to blame the novels for a change in the Borg that was decided on by the makers of the show. The job of tie-in authors is to stay consistent with the universe as it's defined at the time we write our stories. And fictional concepts evolve and mature over time, so it makes no sense to favor their embryonic versions (e.g. James R. Kirk or UESPA or lithium crystals) over their mature versions. It's not our job to ignore everything that was done with a concept after its debut, it's our job to acknowledge all of what canon has established about it, in its most up-to-date, revised form.

Well, that was always implicit ever since Generations. If it was Starfleet that rescued the El-Aurians in 2293, there's no reason why the refugees wouldn't have told them about the Borg then.

Contrary to popular belief, there's nothing in "Q Who" that overtly establishes that Starfleet has never heard of the Borg. We see Picard asking Guinan if she recognizes the alien ship and she says yes, they're called the Borg, and then we see her in a briefing telling what she knows from personal experience. It's never stated that the computer doesn't already have data about them; it's quite possible that in between those scenes, Data checked the computer and found that yes, there were stories about beings called Borg, but they came from Guinan's people in the first place, so Picard decided it was best to go straight to the source.

 

If the Borg didn't care about organic life and just about exceptional technology during their earlier phase (e. g. "Q, Who?" and what happened in this episode was a gamechanger regarding their motivations), they wouldn't have overrun the entire galaxy.

Considering the events in "I, Borg" and "Descent", where Hugh's return brought the Borg Collective in disarray,
as well as the fact that the Borg used time travel technology in FC, there would have been a way to save what the Borg were like during the early episodes by using a time travel explanation.

What if parts of the Borg that missed the collective went into the past in the time between "Descent" and First Contact and changed the nature of the collective, which brought about the rise of the Borg Queen and the other aspects that were changed in their later iteration.

This would have been a good way imo, to keep what the Borg were like during TNG without ignoring the later canon.

 

There's nothing to "save." Again, it's the nature of an artistic creation that it gets refined over time. It's backward to think that the early prototype version is the "right" one. Kirk is not James R. Kirk. Spock is not a Vulcanian. They don't work for UESPA and the ship doesn't use lithium crystals. The early, rough ideas evolved and gave way to a different approach. That's just the way fiction works.

Look, I'll agree the Borg were creepier and more alien in "Q Who," but they were also ill-suited to be used more than once. A faceless, impersonal force of nature makes a terrible recurring threat, because stories need to be about people. So the only viable way to tell more than one story about them -- or to tell the exact same story over and over, which would've been really boring -- was to change how they were defined so that they could have a more personal impact on the characters. (Other franchises have done the same sort of thing, before and since. Doctor Who introduced Davros when the Dalek stories became too repetitive. Stargate SG-1 introduced the humanoid Replicators after the buglike ones had run their course narratively.)

In any case, the point is that it was the show that made those changes, but you were blaming the novelists for being true to them, and that is both nonsensical and completely unfair.

 

I agree with you. I've accepted in universe that the Borg have always been the way they were in after BOBW. My main contention was as they were portrayed more and we learned more about them, they became somewhat less ominous. They were still dangerous and all of course. But I guess that happens in any case. As you learn more about a threat in a story or see it more, it becomes less threatening. It's an issue slasher franchises have. For instance Freddy Kreuger was downright terrifying in the first A Nightmare on Elm St movie...but in later movies he almost became an anti-hero. He ceased to be scary (Wes Craven tried to bring some of that back in his New Nightmare movie--actually a really good meta-story about how the movies brought something dark and evil into the real world).

But it's not the first retcon in Star Trek (you frequently mention the Cardassian Wars--something else I've come to accept in the Star Trek universe). But this, at least for me, is not a major retcon. The Borg are still very much interested in technology. The writers just added another layer with biological assimilation. They didn't really take anything away so much as they added something to the mix.

My main criticism is their frequent portrayal in Voyager demystified them (though I loved some of the episodes regardless, like "Dark Frontier" and even "Scorpion"). But that's not a continuity issue. And despite all that First Contact was my favorite TNG movie and it's one of my top 5 favorite Star Trek films. While I didn't totally warm up to the Borg Queen, I loved how the Borg were otherwise portrayed in that film.

Yeah, I recall you've brought that up before. I figured it's one of those things that sort of got forgotten, as happens in history sometimes. Esp. since there was no significant contact between the Federation and the Borg between "Regenerations" and "Q Who?" Probably after the decades past the information just got lost within all the other historical information over the years. But "Regenerations" gives us another in-universe reason (in addition to the El-Aurians in Generations) for how at least some people were aware of the Borg before "Q, Who?" Did someone like Data look up information on the Borg at some point during the episode? It's possible. Or maybe with everything going on they didn't have time to look it up. Or maybe, for some reason, the information was classified and they didn't have access to it. I'm not sure why that would occur but that could be another possibility.

 

Not even that. It's a vast universe. Even just here on Earth, there are countries and cultures that you or I probably know nothing about. For instance, I have no idea what happened in, say, Brunei 30 years ago this day, or who the leader of Brunei is. And that's just one planet. The Federation as a whole has information about thousands of planets and species -- it's simply impossible that any one person, or even any one entire starship crew, would have knowledge of anywhere near all of it. Something could be really well-known in some circles yet totally unknown to most other people.

(Which is a convenient handwave for why first-season Picard had never heard of the Tkon Empire even though Picard was later established as an accomplished archaeologist. There are simply so many ancient empires in the galaxy that even an expert can't be familiar with every one.)

All anyone in the Federation knew about the Borg was some secondhand accounts from the El-Aurians, and maybe some legends that had made their way from culture to culture around the galaxy by hearsay. They wouldn't have had enough information to link them to the mysterious, unidentified cyborgs that were discovered in the Arctic and attacked NX-01 and those other ships. Remember, the name "Borg" was never spoken in "Regeneration."

There's no reason to postulate that, because absolutely nothing in the episode indicates that the information isn't available. The episode does imply it, but it doesn't confirm it. People just jump to conclusions and mistake their assumptions for in-story facts.

 

Yeah, I can see that. They needed to add some complexity to the Borg for sure. It's also something I said about Klingons in later shows. It's fine for the few times in the original series to make them one dimensional baddies. But as they appeared more and more I think it helped to add some layers of complexity (hence the concept of honor--plus I always thought a warlike species without some sort of limits would wipe itself out---honor was one way to at least put some limits on the violence--that they were violent and warlike but there was some discipline behind it).

The Borg are probably similar. It works great in an episode or two but you have to add some complexity. Just throwing the "Q, Who?" Borg at the Federation over and over again would start to get old after a while. Why do they do what they do? What's their motivation? Who are they? But in answering some of those questions they lose some potency probably unavoidably. But it's one reason I guess I enjoyed "Regeneration" so much. That was a return to how the Borg were when they first appeared in a lot of ways. By necessity they couldn't reveal too much in story. WE knew who they were, but Archer and co. could not. They were portrayed as a force of nature again and it was a nice way to return the Borg to their original roots for one last time

Yeah, it'd be unfair to blame the novels for the Borg in and around Destiny. If you don't like how the Borg were, um, adjusted down the line then blame the show runners. The novels have to be consistent with whatever's on screen. End of story.
.

 

Right, exactly. The same with the attacks in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Now maybe after "Q, Who?" someone tied all that together. But before? It's little bits of historical information that may share similarities but they are separated by decades. It's probably unlikely someone would put all those clues together and tie it to a single species, at least until more significant contact is made and we learn more about them. And yeah, "Regeneration" was very careful to not name the Borg at all. At first when I saw the Borg in Enterprise I wondered how they were going to make that work. But they did (and as I noted even answered one or two questions).

Picard and co. probably didn't know about the Borg because like so many things, it just didn't come up. There was no reason for them to seek out that information prior to their encounter.

I was just throwing out some potential other reasons. I'm not drawing any conclusions, just some alternative ideas. I never gave it a lot of thought. Did someone like Data look up information on the Borg during the story? Who can know? But that's not a big deal for me. Even if he did it probably wouldn't have helped a whole lot. None of that information I imagine would have provided insight on how to stop the Borg. It took Q to get them out of it ultimately.

 

I'm sorry if i made this impression, that wasn't my intention. It's the fault of the producers and script writers. I'm simply disappointed that we might never see the Borg again as they originally were like.

But i don't agree that you could just do again and again what was already done with them in "Q, Who?" and "Best of Both Worlds", if they stayed like they were in those episodes. We never really learnt why they were after all this tech and what goals they had before they were dumbed down into perfection crazy assimilation cyborgs.

And something could have been done with Guinan's comment about establishing a dialogue and reaching a possible coexistence with them when we might have become more advanced, which is a fascinating concept that couldn't be used with the FC/Voyager Borg. They would simply raise their efforts to assimilate you.

 

I guess I'm a weirdo, because I actually much prefer the Post-First Contact Borg.
As for when the Federation knew about them, I think the flashbacks to the events leading up the Annika Hansen and her parents being assimilated were set before Q Who. So there were already rumors and stories about the Borg floating around before the Enterprise-D ran into them.

Before Greater Than the Sum explained the incubated drones, I had thought maybe the babies were from pregnant women who had given birth after they were assimilated, or were babies they had assimilated.
I believe at least a couple Voyager episodes did have references to Seven and the Borg children she took in spending times in "maturation chambers", and I always assumed those were similar to the incubators in Q Who, but obviously for older kids.

 

I really think Voyager made an error of interpretation when they retconned things so that all drones were assimilated. In First Contact, the reason the Borg on the Enterprise were assimilating so many crewmembers was because only a few drones had managed to beam over before their ship was destroyed, so they had to replenish their numbers by taking members of the crew. It was an emergency measure, but VGR interpreted it as their exclusive MO.

I mean, the whole reason that Hugh in "I, Borg" and the drones in "Descent" were so malleable and easily led once severed from the Collective is that they had no identities or personalities except as drones. They were complete blank slates, and that's why Hugh was so receptive to learning individuality and why the "Descent" drones were so susceptible to Lore's cult-leader manipulation. It's completely different from the VGR approach where liberated drones regain their former memories and personalities. I mean, sure, the ones assimilated as children, like Seven and Icheb, had little pre-Borg memory or identity, but it makes no sense to assume that every drone on Hugh's cube was assimilated as a child. The idea was that they were born as drones, that they had never been anything else. Assimilation was an exception used in special cases, like the above.

I mean, I can see the story value in focusing on assimilation. It gives the stories a more personal stake, and makes the Borg scarier in the way that vampires, werewolves, and zombies are scary, the fear that the monsters will turn you into something as monstrous as they are. But they shouldn't have forgotten that not all drones were assimilated.

 

I have to admit, I had never realized that was the reason they were assimilating people in First Contact.

 

Sounds Swedish (somebody had to say it).

 

Ha-ha, me neither. Though it makes sense. One of those things when someone points it out you go 'yeah, why didn't I ever think of that.'

Did Voyager ever actually say that? I mean, they focused on assimilation exclusively but what I mean is did they actually exclude drones being born as drones? I agree about Hugh and some of the others. It makes sense Borg who have never been anything else having greater difficulty acclimating.

And I can see why they added the assimilation angle. The Borg in "Q, Who?" were creepy but assimilation added another layer of scare value to them.

I think the main problem created by Voyager was maybe some oversaturation. And the Queen gave them a personality which demystified them. I understand they had to flesh them out. It's just a shame they lost their edge (at least until "Regeneration" where I felt they recaptured some of that. )

 

Not in so many words, but it was clear in the way they wrote the Borg that they assumed all drones were assimilated. Even the Borg children in "Collective" were all assimilation victims.