Most gruesome/gratuitous Red Shirt death?
- Thread starter Ragitsu
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Give "Catspaw" credit. The episode ends with Kirk grimly acknowledging the poor redshirt who was killed in the opening teaser:
MCCOY: All of this, just an illusion.
KIRK: No illusion. Jackson is dead.
My favorite part of the TMP beaming scene is that a few minutes later in movie-time and only hours later in-universe time, they're beaming up Bones, and Rand and Kirk, who just saw two people turned into screaming soft-serve ice cream by a transporter malfunction, are laughing at Bones' concerns of the transporter scrambling his molecules as if he's some crazy old coot with an irrational fear.
You can quote all the facts about airline transportation being the statistically the safest form of travel there is, and it would be correct, but no one who just witnessed a plane crash first hand and saw people burning alive inside would then nonchalantly laugh at someone with a fear of flying a few hours later. They'd still be spooked by what they just saw, even if they were the coldest, most detached, focus on the mission, highly experienced military personnel imaginable.
They should have reversed the Bones' beam-up to have it be before the malfunction, then have him be present during the malfunction, lending further credence to his fears. I mean, he would have been informed about the malfunction at some point anyway, but it would have been a less disjointed reaction by Kirk and Rand that way, and Bones could have given Kirk a grim "I told you so" glance after the initial horrifying reactions subsided.
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It also begs the question, how was the botched transport even allowed to commence in the first place?
I mean, surely Rand and her assistant - on duty in the transporter room - would never have allowed it to occur, since they knew the transporters weren't working properly. But in Engineering, Cleary says "It's too late! They're beaming now!" So I can only wonder how Starfleet Command were able to attempt to beam Sonak and Admiral Ciana over without Rand's cooperation...or why Starfleet didn't bother to check beforehand as to the status of the Enterprise's transporter.
I mean, surely Rand and her assistant - on duty in the transporter room - would never have allowed it to occur, since they knew the transporters weren't working properly. But in Engineering, Cleary says "It's too late! They're beaming now!" So I can only wonder how Starfleet Command were able to attempt to beam Sonak and Admiral Ciana over without Rand's cooperation...or why Starfleet didn't bother to check beforehand as to the status of the Enterprise's transporter.
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It was a result of all the new systems being installed in a rush to go meet V'Ger in time. A panel blew out in engineering that had something to do with the transporter systems (and a connected one in the transporter room itself blew out as well), and when engineering tried to call the transporter room to warn them not to beam anyone up it was too late, because the transport was already in progress. Likewise with the transporter room not being able to tell spacedock not to begin the transport process in time.
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Was that cold blooded murder? Maybe. I expect that Kelvin law and Federation law might possibly disagree on the topic. What does present day international law on Earth say? I think it would probably consider it a killing in violation of he laws of war and thus murder. I doubt that it was absolutily necessary to kill someone tokeep the others confined for a little bit longer.
The point is that to the degree that is Kirk and co. are soldiers (a highly disputed degree) they know they run a risk of violent death in conflicts with aliens. They also know that different societies have different ethical codes and legal codes, and thus they know that it is possible that aliens following thier own laws (as well as aliens following no laws) might kill them kill in volation of Federation law, and thus murder them according to Federation law.
And do Kirk and co believe that everytime one single member of an alien species kills a Starfleet crewmember in violation of the Federation laws, they must ffight that alien species in an endless war to the death? Or do they believe that sometimes it is their duty to their Federadtion to make peace with enemies and stop fighting them, even if that means not seeking any sort of retribution for war crimes and atrocities?
Think of how many thousands of Axis soldiers were executed or otherwise punished for atrocities and war crimes after World War II, and how many millions of others were also guilty and weren't punished because both sides in the cold war Cold War needed to use them and couldn't afford to punish everyone who deserved it.
The United States government claimed that all the land ceded to it by other European powers was part of the United States Thus the US said that all all Indian groups inside those cede lands were dependent nations within US territory, their governments being dependent governments within the USA, like, for example, states, counties, and municipalities. Thus when a dependent tribe made war on the USA, and was a rebellion like the Southern Rebellion and their leaders and warriors were just as guilty of treason as every southern soldier and leader was. But just as the US government eventually decided - accurately or otherwise - that would be better not to prosecute the southerners for treason, I don't know of any examples of the Us government trying any Indians for treason.
In the 19th century the USA was thousands of times as powerful as any one Indian nation or tribe within it, and many times as powerful as all of them combined. It may be noted that most Indian societies didn't have any equivalent of laws of war and thus most Indian wars didn't feel any ethical constraints on their behavior during war. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that the vast majority of Indian warriors comitted war crimes against Americans or members of eother tribes, or would committ war crimes if they got the chance.
Thus many US soldiers were murdered by Indian warriors in various battles where the army lost. But as far as I know the only Indian wrriors charged with murder were those who killed civilians.
I note that the Sioux and their allied Northern Cheyenne committed atrocities against US soldiers in the Grattan Massacre August 19 1854 (31 dead), the Fetterman Massacre December 21, 1866 (81 dead), and in the destruction of Custer's detachment at the Little Bighorn 25 June 1876 (about 210 dead). In each case they could have won just as well and possilby lost fewer of their own warriors by killing fewer soldiers, letting the others run away, or capturing them as hastagles to prevent future attacks, or just refraining from killing helpless wounded persons.
In the Gratton Massacre, a group of 18 soldiers ffled from the battlefield but were killed by warriors led by Red Cloud. Another young warrior there was Spotted Tail, who I think was arrested for attacking a stage and imprisoned for some time in a small frontier town. Seeing the vast numbers of white men, Spotted Tail became an advocate for peace with the US.
12 years after after Red Cloud was a great chief, the main political leader of the hostiles during Red Cloud's War whch included the Fetterman Massacre. By the Great Sioux War of 1876 Spotted Tail and Red Cloud were the great leaders of those Sioux who were on the reservation, and General Crook employed them in his negotiatins with the hostiles..
I may say that the US Army and the Indian Bureau, part of the Department of the Interior, were bitter rivals for control over Indian relations, so the secretary of the Interior was usually the archenemty in the eyes of amy leaders.
In 1877 there were some desire in the US government to try to force the Sioux to move to the Indian territory, which would have turned into a disaster. When a Sioux delegation including Spotted Tail, Red Cloud, and other chiefs came to Washington to meed the new President Hayes, they complained to General Crook that they were in a new hotel and not the one they were accustomed to, so Crook went to see Sectretary of the Interior Carl Schurz. Crook and Schurz quickly arrainged to move the chiefs to the hotel they wanted. They put aside their organizatonal rivalries for the common good of Sioux and Americans, event though that ment pandering to the whims of chiefs whose followers had committed many war crimes against American citizens and soldiers in the past.
And I think that Captain Kirk could think about the common good just as well. The Kelvins were planning on eventually coming to our galaxy and it would be good for the Federation to change their minds about settling here, or at least about the invading and conquering part. So opening coummunications with the Kelvins in the Andromeda Galaxy, as Kirk suggested, would be important. And who in our gaalxy knew the equivalents of the address and the phone number of the Kelvin government? The Kelvins on the Enterprise, that's who.
fAnd the Federation could use knowledge of the advanced techology of the Kelvins to upgrade Starfleet starships against various threats in our galaxy. And who in our galaxy had any knowledge of Kelvin technology to teach? The Kelvins on the Enterprise, that's who.
Kelvins who might be afraid that their human-appearing descendants might be treated as enemies by the invading Kelvins in the future,and thus had reasons to cooperate. And thus Kelvins who Kirk wouldn't want to frighten with talk of trials.
And who was in control of the Enterprise at the end of the episode, and had the most power to kill and otherwise harm members of the other group? The Kelvins on the Enterprise, that's who. Kirk didn't defeat them and make them prisoners. Nobody knows what the relationship was after the end of the episode, but as far as I know nobody in the episode discusssed the Kelvins surrendering or becoming prisoners when they returned control to Kirk.
A particularly gruesome one was the death of Riva's "orchestra" of speakers from TNG S2xE5 - Loud As a Whisper:
That last bit of her face lingering there is nightmare fuel.
The actress, Marnie Mosiman, is married to John De Lancie.
That last bit of her face lingering there is nightmare fuel.
The actress, Marnie Mosiman, is married to John De Lancie.
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So you know "The Monster Mash".
Whilst not strictly on screen deaths, the depiction of the "dead" in Neelix's dream about the metreon cascade was the most grim for me (that hasn't been mentioned yet - looking at you TMP).
I think, also, it is expectations Vs presentation - so the TMP deaths (on a film rated PG) or Remmick (TV series rated the same) are much more severe than Icheb (streaming show, era of more graphic violence, rated 15 on Prime)
I think, also, it is expectations Vs presentation - so the TMP deaths (on a film rated PG) or Remmick (TV series rated the same) are much more severe than Icheb (streaming show, era of more graphic violence, rated 15 on Prime)
There was that one time in TOS where Kirk sent a redshirt to escort away the apocalypse robot, which then vaporized the redshirt. So he sends *another* redshirt to do the exact same thing, and he gets vaporized again.
The death itself was instant so not overly gratuitous, but what was gratuitous was Kirk's utter disregard for that second redshirt's life.
The death itself was instant so not overly gratuitous, but what was gratuitous was Kirk's utter disregard for that second redshirt's life.
Schisms was the guy who's blood was polymerizing. Worth an honorable mention
The deck plate phased lady from In Theory was pretty horrifying at face value as well though.
But I mean yeah, Remmick kind of takes the cake. Although Spock's predecessor in TMP catching some transporter mutilation was pretty nasty
Ah, the blood turning into a liquid polymer... Lt. Hagler's death was pretty good. The look of terror on his face, and the pasty white complexion as his blood is changing... low key, but low key can be done very, very well.
Actually, I have always loved "Schisms" precisely because it's so unsettling... with one of the two best uses of the holodeck TNG ever did. ("Identity Crisis" being the other one.) A definite Halloween episode.
Brannon Braga really brought it when he brought it.
Actually, I have always loved "Schisms" precisely because it's so unsettling... with one of the two best uses of the holodeck TNG ever did. ("Identity Crisis" being the other one.) A definite Halloween episode.
Brannon Braga really brought it when he brought it.
Later TNG kind of felt like they knew the end was nearing, & they wanted to play with form as much as possible, touching all the genres they maybe hadn't had the chance to get to yet.
For as many episodes they did with creepy or scary alien encounters, they'd never really done the traditional alien abduction vibe. Schisms was that episode... & they nailed it.
For as many episodes they did with creepy or scary alien encounters, they'd never really done the traditional alien abduction vibe. Schisms was that episode... & they nailed it.
Schisms was unsettling, all right. The best scene was the bit on the holodeck, where they recreated the solanogen aliens' mutilation room.
GEORDI: "I've been in this room before."
RIKER: "We've all been here before."
Click click click click click click click click click click click!
GEORDI: "I've been in this room before."
RIKER: "We've all been here before."
Click click click click click click click click click click click!
There's also the fact that the lattermost seasons were produced and written during the 90s (anti-heroes enjoyed a resurgence of popularity and darker tones in general once again became en vogue).
It was the 70s all over again.
Still gives me a lump in my throat
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