Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ If Barclay's program really was private, then the computer wouldn't let anyone else use it. The very fact that others were able to enter the program proves that it's meant for public use; the computer could easily refuse entry to anyone who isn't authorized to view it.

 

[R. Star]

^ If Barclay's program really was private, then the computer wouldn't let anyone else use it. The very fact that others were able to enter the program proves that it's meant for public use; the computer could easily refuse entry to anyone who isn't authorized to view it.

Riker was seen operating the control panel before the doors opened. So one assumes as first officer he was overriding the locking mechanism... a guy as shy as Barclay is definitely going to lock the doors, especially given the personal nature of his programs.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Oh. Okay then.

What about Leah Brahms? She clearly WAS pissed at Geordi for simulating her, and his program was not (that I'm aware of) private.

 

[Timo]

^ So are you saying Troi has no right to be pissed at Barclay for making the Goddess of Empathy?

I'm saying the issue has absolutely nothing to do with privacy, is all.

^ If Barclay's program really was private, then the computer wouldn't let anyone else use it.

That's a moot point because LaForge would have had access to the holodeck quite regardless of any laws. He's a card-carrying murderer, for chrissakes! Civilian law is not going to be an issue if he tells the holodeck to ignore privacy settings.

Indeed, we learn the point of law in this very episode. Riker claims that Barclay is in violation of protocol, but LaForge says there's nothing in the regulations that would stop Barclay from doing what he's doing. Riker accedes the point, huffing that "there ought to be"... So, Starfleet's fine with it, civilian law is fine with it, and our officers just have personal problems with it.

It would seem holodecks aboard starships are somewhat new, so the protocol isn't well-evolved yet. Private holosystems at people's homes (these have been around since Janeway's childhood, and perhaps much longer) would not require the sort of morality rules that public holodecks aboard a military vessel would.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[R. Star]

The computer happily gave Geordi a holo image of Brahms and her personality(admittedly with some flaws). That picture of her and her biography were all public record anyways. So I can't see any legal issues there. Geordi was using it as a "diagnostic" program. So Geordi pretty much screwed up there. That was the equivalent of using a work computer to look up porn while on the clock then a coworker finds out about it. All the more awkward being it was her, true.

You can argue it's questionable to simulate a real person. I wouldn't feel right about it myself. But there's nothing illegal about it. Today we live in an age where you can't walk a block down the street without being observed by half a dozen cameras and nearly every person has a pocket sized camera built into their phone. It's only going to get more widespread in 300 years. What you look like is pretty much accessible by anyone.

 

[Dream]

They weren't cracking evilly as they went into the holodeck to find out all his deepest and darkest holodeck fantasies. They were just worried and wanted to find out where he was.

Also I get the feeling as XO, Riker can open any locked door on the Enterprise, or ask his buddy security chief Worf to do it for him. A locked door wasn't going to stop him.

 

[R. Star]

Riker wasn't worried, he was pissed. LaForge asked Troi to come along because he knew it was about to hit the fan with him personally, so him being worried would be accurate enough.

Barclay did screw up by falling asleep on the holodeck and not showing up to work. No question about it. But if you're on your computer playing video games and lose track of time, that doesn't give your employer the right to break down the door and access your personal computer to find out what you've been doing.

 

[Timo]

Also I get the feeling as XO, Riker can open any locked door on the Enterprise, or ask his buddy security chief Worf to do it for him.

We've certainly seen LaForge do it before, and he was there every time in "Hollow Pursuits".

As for "Booby Trap", LaForge called forth an expert program with a visual avatar, which sounded like a routine thing to do. He then asked the computer to extrapolate a personality for the avatar, just for convenience, which sounded like a thing many people would do but many would not bother with and many would not have the proper resources (i.e. starship computers) for. The Computer claimed that the extrapolation was mostly accurate, and LaForge didn't call for any "smitten at me" or "really likes anal sex" extras, so we're supposed to think we saw the real Leah Brahms...

...That is, we saw a true representation of the public face of Leah Brahms. By definition, that's public property, and it's how Leah wants people to think of her. Well, Geordi thinks of her that way, here and in "Galaxy's Child" still. There's no indication that LaForge would be treading on private ground in any fashion, then - his fault is in trusting Brahms' public image.

But if you're on your computer playing video games and lose track of time, that doesn't give your employer the right to break down the door and access your personal computer to find out what you've been doing.

Except in Starfleet, it probably does. It's the military, after all, and we explicitly know they still do things the old-fashioned way where civilians have moved on to more "evolved" approaches. For failing to show up to work in time, you might well lose all privacy and liberty and, say, be sent to forced labor without food or hygiene for the next 8 hours. Tuvok did some of that stuff in "Learning Curve", remember?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But if you're on your computer playing video games and lose track of time, that doesn't give your employer the right to break down the door and access your personal computer to find out what you've been doing.

It's not Barclay's computer. It's Starfleet's computer.

 

[_C_]

^ But fantasies can affect a person's real life, I would imagine. You spend enough time fantasising about somebody, it's going to affect how you feel about that person IRL.

And I did say that the computer should let the holodeck program run, but still notify anybody being simulated in it. If somebody simulates me on a holodeck, that's much more than thoughts. It's actions. I have the right to know, if they do that. Holosimulation of somebody without their consent is an invasion of that person's privacy.

And let's face it, if you are operating a holodeck program and you actually let people in who are being simulated in that program, you deserve any nasty remarks they give you in return.

This.

I had an online scuffle with somebody who skeeved me out, and one of his ways to "get back at me" was to write horror fanfics about me being brutally murdered by Freddy Krueger.

Let's just say I made it clear that if this person ever came near me, he would be escorted away in a squad car. He's been banned from several sites and forums for his behavior. I hope I NEVER meet him.

Sorry for the OT.


ON TOPIC NOW...

I really think if someone's likeness is being used in a holoprogram, the subject should know. I'd be very upset and feel invaded if somebody was using my likeness in a porn program or something. Really, I'd rather CHOOSE who gets to see me naked!

Now a prank program where nobody gets hurt or naked would be pretty funny. Imagine walking into a holosuite and having Data's likeness spammed everywhere.

...oh wait.

(Now I really want to rickroll a holosuite...)

 

[Tom Riley]

One thing I'd like to point out is everyone's assumptions about the detail these simulated versions have. I really doubt the holodeck computer would simulate a person down to the very detail of their genitals when someone asks for a sim with this person's likeness. More likely the computer would give you the amount of detailing you could get from any public pictures and would then create generic body parts for anywhere you couldn't get in an image.

Is that really any different than pulling up a porn image now and photoshopping someone else's head on it? Like was said earlier, Quark had to try to get an actual scan of Kira for the program he tried to make, so obviously the computer wouldn't make a fully accurate simulation on its own.

So is it violating your privacy if none of the private bits are actually duplications of yours? That's something to think about...

 

[_C_]

^I understand what you're getting at, but I think it'd still be kind of creepy to ME personally. I'm not everybody else, so I'm just stating my opinion. :P

 

[R. Star]

Well we only saw those 3d holo cameras that capture the details below the clothes twice. Quark had one and the Doctor on Voyager had one. But that perv(played by Jeffery Combs!) wanted an accurate holo of Kira, so Quark resorted to his antics. Though why he just didn't have one of his waiters take a picture of Kira while he was talking to her is beyond me. But yeah, obtaining a holo like that should be illegal.

I always just assumed that if a created hologram is in a compromising position shall we say, the computer just... fills in the blanks with something appropriate, that may not be completely accurate. The general "public" personality and generic picture is public file... the computer provides it on asking, so taking that information and making a hologram from it doesn't strike me as wrong.

Creepy? Sure.. I'd think so too if it was me. But I just don't see anything illegal about it. Not that much different than using your imagination... just with some computer interaction.

 

[Tiberius]

I really think if someone's likeness is being used in a holoprogram, the subject should know. I'd be very upset and feel invaded if somebody was using my likeness in a porn program or something. Really, I'd rather CHOOSE who gets to see me naked!

And how would it be you? Or even an accurate representation of you? Unless the person in question somehow got access to what you look like naked, it's just a generic person shape of your approximate size with your face. Doesn't mean they got any other details right.

 

[Tom Riley]

^I understand what you're getting at, but I think it'd still be kind of creepy to ME personally. I'm not everybody else, so I'm just stating my opinion. :P

No definitely. I mean I'd find it super creepy if I found out now that someone was photoshopping my face onto generic naked bodies to beat off to. I just don't think that their computer should notify me to it if it were possible, as creepy as it may be.

 

[JoeZhang]

Well we do have present day exceptions to that - if you simulate a child being abused, you can be arrested (or at least I think that is the case).

 

[Timo]

I really think if someone's likeness is being used in a holoprogram, the subject should know.

Really?

I mean, really?

Let's play out the scenario. I'm now reporting that I have purchased a sex doll looking exactly like you, based on perfectly legal photographs I have taken of you, a set of measurements your tailor perfectly legally gave me, and very detailed interviews of your ex-girlfriends. I have dressed you up as Sheriff of Nottingham in a tableau including other fellow TrekBBS members, and every Tuesday night I play a little scene where I get to be Robin Hood, make all of you look like fools, and get Maid Marion (fashioned in the likeness of T'Bonz, of course).

Are you happier now that you are well informed?

if you simulate a child being abused, you can be arrested (or at least I think that is the case).

In some places, it might be. But that doesn't involve privacy in any way - the supposed arrest would take place even if the simulation bore no resemblance to any existing child, and indeed was not based on anybody in particular.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[nureintier]

You are a Starfleet Captain... a captain with needs... you create a program on the holodeck where Worf is tea-bagging commander Riker - moral or not?

If nobody else sees it - what's the problem? How is it really different from simply thinking about the same activities?

Well, I think it would make you a bit of a creep, even if it only involved holograms of another person without their consent.

In a way, it's not much different than fantasizing about a person, but I think there are important differences. You can't police people's thoughts, but you can make laws about interactive software which could be misrepresenting you to a lot of people. It would also mean someone like Quark would be profiting from unauthorized use of your image.

Well we only saw those 3d holo cameras that capture the details below the clothes twice. Quark had one and the Doctor on Voyager had one. But that perv(played by Jeffery Combs!) wanted an accurate holo of Kira, so Quark resorted to his antics. Though why he just didn't have one of his waiters take a picture of Kira while he was talking to her is beyond me. But yeah, obtaining a holo like that should be illegal.

Yeah, that's the episode that came to my mind reading this. I don't know about laws then, but I know that now, in real life, people have certain rights to the way their likeness is being used. And I think many would object to it being used for something like simulated sex in a holo program. Again, no idea how such things would work in the ST universe, but in real life, we have things like model release forms to authorize the use of (and profit from) someone's likeness.

I know I keep talking about legal matters and not moral ones...

 

[Charles Phipps]

In RL, it's perfectly normal to sexually fantasize about just about anyone. However, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a situation like the one on Deep Space Nine where Quark is making a sex doll hologram of Major Kira without her knowledge/permission. That strikes me as grossly inappropriate.

I think that, were I a JAG in the Starfleet world, I'd rule that anyone can make a cease and desist order for use of their images without their permission.

 

[Mojochi]

Using Enterprise assets to denigrate a fellow officer is certainly conduct unbecoming, & also potential harassment if the assets are able to be accessed publicly. Though I've never really heard it mentioned as such, I'd have to imagine there's regulations of that manner in Starfleet

The bigger question is why after having become aware of Barclay's fantasies & having been subject to discovering them, didn't Troi recuse herself as his professional counsel? Clearly that's a patient conflict. She can no longer provide effective therapy to him because that relationship has been polluted. Frankly, she can no longer be a completely impartial & objective therapist