Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

[JoeZhang]

You are a Starfleet Captain... a captain with needs... you create a program on the holodeck where Worf is tea-bagging commander Riker - moral or not?

If nobody else sees it - what's the problem? How is it really different from simply thinking about the same activities?

 

[T'Girl]

what's the problem?

Just keep repeating that over and over again, as Worf drags you towards the air lock.

 

[R. Star]

Guess that's not much different that Barclay's Goddess of Empathy program... that also character assassinates Riker.

Still, I'm not sure I'd call it "moral" but at the same time... hey, whatever floats your boat. It's your holodeck time. But yeah, T'Girl's right... if Worf sees it you're screwed. However you want to take that.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

A person's fantasies are their own business.

 

[Dream]

Guess that's not much different that Barclay's Goddess of Empathy program... that also character assassinates Riker.

Still, I'm not sure I'd call it "moral" but at the same time... hey, whatever floats your boat. It's your holodeck time. But yeah, T'Girl's right... if Worf sees it you're screwed. However you want to take that.

Yeah, Barclay just has to be prepared for Riker and Wolf to make his life a living hell the moment they find out.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

People should have the right to know if somebody else is simulating them in a holodeck. The computer should let the holodeck program proceed, but still notify the person being simulated.

Everyone reading this, admit it: You would want to know if somebody's doing something unspeakable to you, even if it's only a holoprogram. Don't even try to deny it. Hologram or not, it's still you. Whoever's running the program, whatever they're doing - the fact that they're simulating you, proves that they want to do that thing to YOU. (If not, they wouldn't be simulating you in the first place.) Wouldn't you want to know what that thing is?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Of course I'd want to know but it wouldn't be my right to know, not unless they had any intent to do me harm in real life.

Every time you imagine having sex with a woman, do you call her up and tell her about it? The holodeck is like your imagination, only with sensory feedback.

I like Dax's response to Bashir's Dax in If Wishes Were Horses. "If anything I should apologize to you for intruding on your private fantasies".

 

[Third Nacelle]

Imagining having sex with someone is one thing, but I think running a simulation of someone like that infringes on a person's right to privacy.

How would you feel is someone had a RealDoll made that looked just like you?

 

[R. Star]

People should have the right to know if somebody else is simulating them in a holodeck. The computer should let the holodeck program proceed, but still notify the person being simulated.

Everyone reading this, admit it: You would want to know if somebody's doing something unspeakable to you, even if it's only a holoprogram. Don't even try to deny it. Hologram or not, it's still you. Whoever's running the program, whatever they're doing - the fact that they're simulating you, proves that they want to do that thing to YOU. (If not, they wouldn't be simulating you in the first place.) Wouldn't you want to know what that thing is?

Nah, the holodeck is basically a tool that can be an extension of a person's fantasy life. As human nature as it is to be curious about other people's fantasies, especially if they may regard you, a person's fantasy life is their own business. Notifications about "personal violations" in the holodeck is pretty much akin to playing thought police.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But fantasies can affect a person's real life, I would imagine. You spend enough time fantasising about somebody, it's going to affect how you feel about that person IRL.

And I did say that the computer should let the holodeck program run, but still notify anybody being simulated in it. If somebody simulates me on a holodeck, that's much more than thoughts. It's actions. I have the right to know, if they do that. Holosimulation of somebody without their consent is an invasion of that person's privacy.

And let's face it, if you are operating a holodeck program and you actually let people in who are being simulated in that program, you deserve any nasty remarks they give you in return.

 

[R. Star]

Sure, fantasy can become unhealthy when taken to excess. So can just about anything. However just because something can or may happen, doesn't justify an invasion of privacy. Anything that happens on a holodeck when it's being used recreationally is just a private extension of a fantasy life. It'd be like writing a fan fiction about a real person and keeping it to yourself for your own enjoyment. I'd agree publishing such a fiction would be questionable at best, but if it stays with the author as a device for their own personal entertainment, what's the harm? The same with a holodeck program, the only difference is technology having advanced.

As for letting people in the holodeck? Well sometimes you just can't help it if that jerk of a first officer overrides the lock and barges in on you.

 

[Third Nacelle]

The invasion of privacy comes in when you create an exact replica of someone. As detailed as Barclay's holodeck simulations of Troi were, he must have been using some kind of holoimage of her, not just his imagination.

 

[Dream]

The invasion of privacy comes in when you create an exact replica of someone. As detailed as Barclay's holodeck simulations of Troi were, he must have been using some kind of holoimage of her, not just his imagination.

Normal people get angry at things like this.

Reminds me of when Quark tried to take a holoimage of Kira to make a sex hologram for one of his costumers in ""Meridian". She was rightfully pissed. Also Odo offered to arrest Quark for his actions.

 

[Timo]

Then again, Odo threatening to arrest Quark is like Germany invading France: it's the thing to do in case of X, for all values of X. Doesn't mean Quark did anything illegal.

Today, it's very difficult to sue anybody over making an image or other copy of yourself. Even photographing without permission only becomes a crime in extremely specific circumstances. If somebody did make a statue of you, and didn't put it on public display, you'd be laughed out of court if you called for reparations or destruction of the statue or whatever. Even if said statue had anatomically correct holes...

But what's moral today doesn't tell much about what's moral in the TNG era. We know that our heroes object to holo-copies of themselves in all cases: Leah Brahms, Troi/Riker/LaForge, Kira all voice their objections. But we have no idea whether anybody would have objected to the scene where Barclay spoke to "bridge officers" at the end of "Hollow Pursuits".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

The invasion of privacy comes in when you create an exact replica of someone. As detailed as Barclay's holodeck simulations of Troi were, he must have been using some kind of holoimage of her, not just his imagination.

If it was forbidden in the Trekverse, Geordi would not have been able to create Leah Brahms (including her psychological profile!), because the computer would simply not let him do it (privacy settings in the Starfleet database and all that).

The invasion of privacy in Barclay's case would ONLY be the taking of the pictures without consent, not the digital recreation for personal use. But then again, that's what paparazzi do in the real world and it's widely accepted.

Imagining having sex with someone is one thing, but I think running a simulation of someone like that infringes on a person's right to privacy.

How would you feel is someone had a RealDoll made that looked just like you?

Depending on who uses it, I'd ask: "Why just the doll?"

And if you masturbate to photographs of your crush on Facebook, it's actually YOUR private right to do so.

I like Dax's response to Bashir's Dax in If Wishes Were Horses. "If anything I should apologize to you for intruding on your private fantasies".

That is indeed a good point about it.


People act like it's a horrible invasion of their privacy if someone, only for himself, imagines stuff with them. But the bigger invasion of privacy is how they find out about that after all. People should be able to do whatever the hell they want. And if it's just for personal use, it doesn't hurt ANYONE. And if you find out about it, then you gotta ask yourself first how you found out about it (probably by invading the privacy of someone else).


It's like checking emails of your partner if you suspect (s)he's cheating on you. That doesn't make it right.


Just imagine a world where every Hollywood celebrity could sue anyone who jerked off to footage of them. They SHOULD be able to stop paparazzi taking pictures of them everywhere, though, because that is the actual invasion of privacy.

 

[Zameaze]

And I did say that the computer should let the holodeck program run, but still notify anybody being simulated in it.

Are you sure you want to program the ship's computer to be a snitch just to protect your ego and curiosity?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

just because something can or may happen, doesn't justify an invasion of privacy.

Why is it important to protect the privacy of holodeck users, but NOT the privacy of those being simulated? Their concerns are just as important.

 

[Timo]

Nothing about the privacy of the party being simulated is in jeopardy. His or her personal existence is not being affected in any way - indeed, thanks solely to the simulating party's privacy remaining unviolated.

If any violation of privacy took place, this happened before the simulation, with the simulating party obtaining knowledge of the target. But the knowledge required for making, say, Barclay's "Goddess of Empathy" cannot be considered "private" by any stretch of the word, or else we would all be having our eyes surgically removed at birth to prevent the possibility of violating each other's right to remain unseen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ So are you saying Troi has no right to be pissed at Barclay for making the Goddess of Empathy?

 

[R. Star]

After she barged in on his private holodeck session? Not really.