...slag the Founders' homeworld?
He didn't, and what happened next was the Dominion war...
A real ends / means toughie...
He didn't, and what happened next was the Dominion war...
A real ends / means toughie...
Moral dilemma: Should Worf have just let Garak...
- Thread starter Deimos Anomaly
- Start date
I found it profoundly strange that Worf did stop Garak...
Yes, sir. Nuke that fucker! Twice.
Weeell...the Rommies and Cardies tried to slag the Founders' homeworld and started a war. If Garak had failed, he could have made everything worse.
But don't worry, the Feds won by even more underhanded means (genocide!) so the moral of the story is still The Ends Justifies the Means.
But don't worry, the Feds won by even more underhanded means (genocide!) so the moral of the story is still The Ends Justifies the Means.
Weeell...the Rommies and Cardies tried to slag the Founders' homeworld and started a war. If Garak had failed, he could have made everything worse.
But don't worry, the Feds won by even more underhanded means (genocide!) so the moral of the story is still The Ends Justifies the Means.
I don't know how worse it could have gotten. The Dominion was already hell-bent on subjugating and/or exterminating everyone in the Alpha Quadrant, what more could they do?
Weeell...the Rommies and Cardies tried to slag the Founders' homeworld and started a war. If Garak had failed, he could have made everything worse.
But don't worry, the Feds won by even more underhanded means (genocide!) so the moral of the story is still The Ends Justifies the Means.
I don't know how worse it could have gotten. The Dominion was already hell-bent on subjugating and/or exterminating everyone in the Alpha Quadrant, what more could they do?
Lose the Federation ALL of its moral high ground, convincing the Klingons, Romulans, and other powers that the Federation will GUT you if it has the chance. You can't be connected with planet-wide genocide and expect other powers to view you as having peaceful intentions.
I disagree with the belief that Worf's actions in this case would have changed anything. The Founders seem to leave a lot of the running of the Dominion to the Vorta and they are absent enough that some of their members doubt they exist. They are hidden away out of sight so the Vorta could probably conceal the destruction, even if the Federation somehow got proof I don't think the Jem'Hadar would take any notice.
There is probably dozens maybe hundreds of Founders off on missions, so they could just reform the Link. They would be extra pissed and maybe change their war from one of conquest to one of extermination. If the war went the same way with Odo dead the Dominion wouldn't surrender and the war would have been prolonged having to dig out every single Jem'Hadar on the Alpha side of the wormhole.
There is probably dozens maybe hundreds of Founders off on missions, so they could just reform the Link. They would be extra pissed and maybe change their war from one of conquest to one of extermination. If the war went the same way with Odo dead the Dominion wouldn't surrender and the war would have been prolonged having to dig out every single Jem'Hadar on the Alpha side of the wormhole.
Trelane
Lieutenant Commander
I think Worf suffered with the decision to a degree as the Klingon part of him said "off with their heads" but the part of him that was in-command of a Starfleet vessel realized that such a decision would've given the Founders just that much more political ammunition to permanently cement their genocidal rage at Solids.
Secondly, Worf was keen to the fact there was likely bluegill and/or Founder infiltrators at Starfleet Headquarters that were in positions that were better informed about whether or not either side would've agreed to a ceasefire, mediation and the likelihood of Bluegills and/or Founders manipulating those in-charge into plunging ahead, regardless.
If there was a way to get through to the Founders, hail them and simply ask them for an opportunity to agree on an objective third party to mediate and end things...it would've been nice & consistant with TNG's "talk things out" , "the first duty is to personal truth, historical truth and scientific truth" methodology, but makes for disappointing / anti-climactic TV.
Lastly, fan-fiction pertaining to post-Dominion War Cardassia makes it pretty likely there are going to be those sects on all sides of the Alpha Quadrant Alliance that will refuse to honor the Treaty Of Bajor. I can see the very likely possibility of a Cardassian Sect that will go ahead against the Founders.
Secondly, Worf was keen to the fact there was likely bluegill and/or Founder infiltrators at Starfleet Headquarters that were in positions that were better informed about whether or not either side would've agreed to a ceasefire, mediation and the likelihood of Bluegills and/or Founders manipulating those in-charge into plunging ahead, regardless.
If there was a way to get through to the Founders, hail them and simply ask them for an opportunity to agree on an objective third party to mediate and end things...it would've been nice & consistant with TNG's "talk things out" , "the first duty is to personal truth, historical truth and scientific truth" methodology, but makes for disappointing / anti-climactic TV.
Lastly, fan-fiction pertaining to post-Dominion War Cardassia makes it pretty likely there are going to be those sects on all sides of the Alpha Quadrant Alliance that will refuse to honor the Treaty Of Bajor. I can see the very likely possibility of a Cardassian Sect that will go ahead against the Founders.
No.
How would mass murdering the Changelings be different from the Changelings' attempt to mass murder the solids of the Alpha Quadrant? I might be mistaken, but the Federation is supposed to be the good guys, not the "other bad guys" of the show.
The whole dilemma isn't just black&white. It's not as simple as "kill all the Founders and it'll be good." No, it's not just 'good.' Genocide is a horrible thing to do. Full Stop.
And as Jono pointed out, it's very likely that some Founders could be off-world at that time and it wouldn't prevent the war, but probably start it earlier.
So everything would play out even worse re war plus the Federation would have a lot of blood--well, goo--on their hands. Not very Roddenberish Star Trek.
How would mass murdering the Changelings be different from the Changelings' attempt to mass murder the solids of the Alpha Quadrant? I might be mistaken, but the Federation is supposed to be the good guys, not the "other bad guys" of the show.
The whole dilemma isn't just black&white. It's not as simple as "kill all the Founders and it'll be good." No, it's not just 'good.' Genocide is a horrible thing to do. Full Stop.
And as Jono pointed out, it's very likely that some Founders could be off-world at that time and it wouldn't prevent the war, but probably start it earlier.
So everything would play out even worse re war plus the Federation would have a lot of blood--well, goo--on their hands. Not very Roddenberish Star Trek.
"Mass murdering" the Founders would have save Federation citizens, Klingons, Romulans, and any other allies the Federation possessed. Ultimately saved numorious Cardassians, saved Jem'Hadar slaves, and may have one day resulted in the freedom of the races subjugated by the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant.
You know Gul Re'jal, you are allowed legally (our laws) to kill the people who are attacking your civilization, the Jem'Hadar were just proxies, the driving force behind the whole war was the Founders.
Ahh, but very Jack O'Neill.
Kirk didn't seem to worry about that too much when ordering the extermination of the Eminians.
Why should the Alphans view the UFP with disdain for local genocide? They all appear to practice it themselves, to no great disadvantage. The Feds might come out smelling roses if they were the rare empire that does genocide for a good reason. And their foes would agree on the extermination of the Founders being a good reason even from their own viewpoint.
And if they think that of themselves, then of course the slaughtering of bad guys would be different from (that is, better than) the slaughtering of good guys!
Which, coincidentally, would probably guarantee Alpha victory. After all, the Dominion hadn't truly established itself at the Alpha side at that point.
Timo Saloniemi
The Jemmies in "The Ship" all killed themselves because one founder died...
But, there was no concealing that from them.
Genocide can not be justified. I don't remember if he had objections to the plan to destroy the borg with some puzzle.
Besides the Federation had options to stopping the dominion including closing the wormhole as a last resort. Actually considering that was their only route of invasion. Defending the alpha quandrant should have been easy.
Besides the Federation had options to stopping the dominion including closing the wormhole as a last resort. Actually considering that was their only route of invasion. Defending the alpha quandrant should have been easy.
Why not? Murder can be justified - every military gives out medals for the deed, and every police organization trains its employees how to best practice the art and under what excuses.
And genocide has been justified. The big Eugenics War in the 1930s-40s saw several sides doing it: Germany and to a lesser degree Japan decided that certain cultures had to be exterminated simply because they were unworthy of breathing the air and drinking the water, while the UK, the USSR and the US decided that certain cultures had to be exterminated because they were participating in the war effort in whole and were devoid of innocent individuals. Garak's justification here does not appear to differ much from the Allied ones, save for two details: the number of projected enemy casualties would be a bit lower (the Link might even be counted as just one casualty) and concentrate on parties directly guilty of aggression rather than their hapless proxies - and there would be no chance of using the genocide process as mere deterrent, to be aborted if it attained its goals indirectly, like Allied bombing and starving campaigns eventually did.
Quite true. Cardassia didn't, though: they didn't control the wormhole, and they (along with the Romulans) were the ones directly threatened with extermination by the Dominion.
One wonders if the writers shouldn't have kept a Romulan character aboard the Defiant as well. That would have made "Broken Link" and, say, "To the Death" even more interesting.
Timo Saloniemi
were all the founders in the dominion on that single planet???? if so then it would make sense to destroy it at that time however if a handful of founders were outside on some other planet or ship then they could order a war anyway (because there still be someone in charge of the Jem'Hadar) and it only takes like two changelings to fuck up earth so don't need too many of them
I assume you mean these events were wrongly justified by people at the time. They can't be justified by any sane morality. You can't murder an entire race of people. You can't murder one person.
Killing in war must be to protect freedom and the innocent. Not to get rid of an unwanted group of people, that isn't war. There are investigations of war crimes if killings are seen as wrong. Sadly sometimes war is necessary but millitary actions against millitary isn't murder.
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