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Money in TrekLit: A society without currency?

The problem with this interpretation is that we've seen currency used within the Federation, and we've seen other indirect forms of evidence that it's been used.
However, your own very comprehensive list gives food for thought. Which of the "credit" usages there are actually intra-Federation?

* Cyrano Jones at K-7? Perhaps, perhaps not, as this is a frontier outpost, bordering on disputed space. Jones might be a Federation citizen, or at least directly subject to its laws. But the bar and its tender need not be - re: Quark's.

* So, Starfleet personnel at Quark's? That's certainly not intra-UFP, and although Starfleet or the UFP may have made a special arrangement with Quark on keeping the local Starfleeters in food and drink and sufficiently entertained, we can well argue that any time we hear of credits, it's because Quark requires hard cash, not because Starfleeters or Feds do that among themselves.

* Robbing of Bank of Bolarus for GPL, i.e. cash? Need not be Federation cash being stored there - UFP banks would obviously deal with foreign economies which do use currency. Note that none of the robbers were identified as Feds.

* Quark paying a fine to the Feds? Again not intra-UFP. Ferengi citizens and corporations doing business within the UFP would have to fit in this scheme the UFP and the Ferengi Alliance have between themselves. An incidental extra transaction like this fine thing would still probably fall outside the general agreement, and currency if not cash would have to change hands, just as when Bashir buys holo-time. A different sort of sanction could be imposed on a UFP citizen who is within the sanctions system rather than a foreigner who scrams for parts unknown right after release.

* Crusher's cloth? That's an obvious UFP/alien transaction, not intra-UFP. Expense account for interstellar representatives in action, probably.

* Buying the Barzan wormhole? Again not intra-UFP, although the scale is a bit different from Crusher's buy.

* The Tigan business? Not stated as being UFP at all - indeed, Trills back on planet Trill being members is far from established in canon (although the novels are a different matter), and the Tigans being UFP citizens is a wholly separate issue again. Note also how the local jurisdiction is out of the hands of UFP police forces (if any indeed exist).

* The businesses decidedly within the Federation, like Joe Sisko's restaurant or the various jobs old man Bashir held? There is no mention of money being involved there - the "future economy" that Picard speaks of could account for these businesses, the deciding factors being professional pride and customer satisfaction rather than the making of profit. On the practical level, expenses and winnings could be invisible to both sides of the business, creating a moneyless society of fully automated and user-inaccessible transactions. We never see anybody pay at Sisko's.

What does that leave? The "Author, Author" thing where a book is rushed to the market? Hardly suggestive of monetary interests, when this would be one of the most obvious places to apply the "future economy" credo of people being motivated by professional pride.

So essentially, we're left with "The Gift" and the incident of a known Federation citizen buying a commodity on a Federation world from a merchant who isn't identified as non-Federation, and an explicit price being involved. That's a single piece of evidence to overcome if we want to push for the truly cashless, truly consumer-money-less interpretation of UFP economy.

FWIW, the transaction was between two Vulcans. Perhaps this planet has a local arrangement unrelated to the UFP economy. And perhaps this arrangement is even limited to religious items such as the meditation lamp in question. No matter - if this is the sole issue to be tackled, all sorts of fancy explanations can be considered.

(And incidentally, I don't think the Vulcan was supposed to have upped the price because he thought Starfleeters were wealthy. I thought he upped it because he loathed Starfleet, like many Vulcans seem to.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
(And incidentally, I don't think the Vulcan was supposed to have upped the price because he thought Starfleeters were wealthy. I thought he upped it because he loathed Starfleet, like many Vulcans seem to.)

Timo Saloniemi

He thought they'd be an easy mark.
 
Kirk claims it doesn't in ST IV - When asked "Don't tell me, you don't have money in the future," he says "well, we don't."
That's not really a convincing example. In the context of that scene, he is explaining why he has no 20th-century paper currency. He might as well have meant that the 23rd-century UFP doesn't use paper-and-coin currency within its own borders. It's also easier for him to say "Well, we don't" as his excuse when the check comes than to begin a lengthy explanation of a credit-based economy.

I'm not trying to be convincing (it'd be hypocritical - Reservoir Ferengi is full of banking, for a start) but it's a more specific example than the First Contact one, so I figured I'd mention it...
 
Well, if you want a convincing example, there's the on I always throw at Dave when we have this discussion :D , to wit, "In the Cards," where the entire plot hinges on the Federation not having currency of any kind. :lol:
 
Well, it hinges on Jake not having currency of any kind. We know that other Federation citizens such as O'Brien, Bashir, and Dax keep quantities of latinum for use in Quark's. It's possible to have currency if you're in the Federation, you just don't need it. Unless you're dealing with another culture that has it, or seeking to obtain something you can't just order from your replicator.
 
Well, if you want a convincing example, there's the on I always throw at Dave when we have this discussion :D , to wit, "In the Cards," where the entire plot hinges on the Federation not having currency of any kind. :lol:
Not having currency is not the same thing as not having credit, or not having an economy. It's not unusual that to participate in an auction such as the one in that episode, buyers must prove their ability to pay before being permitted to bid. Because Jake and Nog had no income, and no material wealth, they had to come up with something.

Bottom line, don't confuse a statement that the Federation doesn't use currency to mean that it has no monetary equivalent.
 
The problem with this interpretation is that we've seen currency used within the Federation, and we've seen other indirect forms of evidence that it's been used.
However, your own very comprehensive list gives food for thought. Which of the "credit" usages there are actually intra-Federation?

* Cyrano Jones at K-7? Perhaps, perhaps not, as this is a frontier outpost, bordering on disputed space. Jones might be a Federation citizen, or at least directly subject to its laws. But the bar and its tender need not be - re: Quark's.

They most probably are both Federates. There's no evidence whatsoever that the bartender is not a Federation citizen, and Deep Space Station K-7 is a Federation -- though not Starfleet -- outpost. Further, we also saw Jones selling tribbles to Enterprise crewmembers like Uhura, who clearly is a Federate.

* So, Starfleet personnel at Quark's? That's certainly not intra-UFP, and although Starfleet or the UFP may have made a special arrangement with Quark on keeping the local Starfleeters in food and drink and sufficiently entertained, we can well argue that any time we hear of credits, it's because Quark requires hard cash, not because Starfleeters or Feds do that among themselves.

The problem with this logic is two-fold: 1. TOS had already established the Federation Credit as the UFP's currency; 2. There's no evidence of some sort of special agreement between the UFP/Starfleet and Quark's bar. To be fair, though, I would personally have thought that Quark would have wanted people to use Bajoran litas since it's Bajoran territory until the Relaunch.

* Robbing of Bank of Bolarus for GPL, i.e. cash? Need not be Federation cash being stored there - UFP banks would obviously deal with foreign economies which do use currency. Note that none of the robbers were identified as Feds.

Most of the robbers we saw were clearly Human, making it strongly probable. Seems to me that we should always assume a member of a known Federation species is probably a Federate unless it's said otherwise. And there is no evidence whatsoever that the Bank of Bolias deals primarily in foreign currency. Bolarus/Bolias is clearly a Federation Member world, and it clearly has a major bank, so obviously banking is going on in the Federation.

* Quark paying a fine to the Feds? Again not intra-UFP.

No, but what the hell would the Federation need with a fine unless it requires revenue of some sort?

* Crusher's cloth? That's an obvious UFP/alien transaction, not intra-UFP. Expense account for interstellar representatives in action, probably.

There's no evidence that it's an expense account for only for Federation representatives to foreign worlds. In point of fact, that doesn't even make sense -- why would a moneyless society that has eliminated the desire to accumulate wealth or material objects give any of its officers an expense account for alien trade?

* Buying the Barzan wormhole? Again not intra-UFP, although the scale is a bit different from Crusher's buy.

Sure, but how could the Federation possibly have the money to pay for it unless it does possess a monetary system of some sort?

* The Tigan business? Not stated as being UFP at all - indeed, Trills back on planet Trill being members is far from established in canon (although the novels are a different matter),

It was very clearly implied (Curzon as a Federation diplomat and then two Starfleet officers in a row? That's an AWFUL lot of cultural integration for a foreign state), and that is the direction the novels have taken. And since this is a TrekLit, it's perfectly acceptable evidence.

and the Tigans being UFP citizens is a wholly separate issue again. Note also how the local jurisdiction is out of the hands of UFP police forces (if any indeed exist).

Even if you buy that a world called New Sydney isn't a Federation world -- and again, I think that given the Federation's size, we ought to assume that it's Federation unless it's specifically said otherwise -- the fact that there's a business owned and operated by Federation citizens still undermines the idea of a moneyless, want-less society.

* The businesses decidedly within the Federation, like Joe Sisko's restaurant or the various jobs old man Bashir held? There is no mention of money being involved there - the "future economy" that Picard speaks of could account for these businesses, the deciding factors being professional pride and customer satisfaction rather than the making of profit.

As someone who has worked in a restaurant, no. There are few work environments as stressful, or full of customers as impatient and ungracious, as a restaurant. The idea that anyone would willingly operate or work at a restaurant in the absence of some sort of incentive beyond "pride in accomplishment" is ludicrous. You might as well suggest that enough people would enjoy cleaning toilets for no reward to keep the janitorial industry alive.

What does that leave? The "Author, Author" thing where a book is rushed to the market? Hardly suggestive of monetary interests, when this would be one of the most obvious places to apply the "future economy" credo of people being motivated by professional pride.

That makes no sense at all. Rushing out to publish a half-finished "manuscript" draft isn't a source of professional pride at all -- it's a source of professional embarrassment. The only way the publisher's actions in "Author, Author" make ANY sense at all is if they needed to get Photons Be Free out there to make money off of it.

You also neglected to address Quark's being able to sell a shuttle for scrap on Earth and then buying a ticket to DS9, or Bashir's father's numerous privately-owned businesses (all apparently financial failures, too).

There are also other references to money and monetary transactions in the Federation or involving Federates:

* Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, wherein McCoy is told that it will be expensive to hire a transport to the Mutara Sector

* DS9's "Explorers," wherein Sisko talks about using up "a month's worth of transporter credits" by constantly beaming back home after entering Starfleet Academy

* In "The Apple," Kirk asks Spock if he knows how much Starfleet has invested in him, and Spock begins to answer.

* In Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Scotty has just bought a boat

* Harry Mudd's Federation criminal record indicates in "Mudd's Women" that he is guilty of having purchased a spacecraft with counterfeit currency. He is also guilty of being a con man and smuggler, and he's clearly operating within Federation space (delivering mail-order brides to the Rigel system), which makes no sense if there's no money in the Federation to be made. And of course he was engaging in sentient smuggling in the hopes of making money from the Federation citizens he sold those women to.

* In "I, Mudd," we discover that he later tried to sell technology that he did not possess the patents for, including a Vulcan patent, to the inhabitants of various worlds, including Deneb V, which Star Charts establishes to be a Federation world. Even if it wasn't, though, why would anyone on Vulcan hold a patent except to make money?

* In "The Doomsday Machine," Kirk tells Scotty that he's earned his pay for that week

Basically, the issue is that there are numerous examples of trade and monetary exchange going on both within and without the Federation, involving Federation citizens. This contradicts the idea that there is absolutely no money and no monetary exchange and no desire to accumulate material goods or to gain wealth.

The only logical way to reconcile this discrepancy is to assume that because of the increased resources generated by being a space-faring civilization, poverty has been eliminated, and the Federation government is wealthy enough that it can more than afford to support anyone who is not privately employed. In other words, you can live a long, healthy, comfortable life without ever needing money, but, if you want luxuries, things that aren't necessary for physical and mental health, you have to earn them.
 
Well, if you want a convincing example, there's the on I always throw at Dave when we have this discussion :D , to wit, "In the Cards," where the entire plot hinges on the Federation not having currency of any kind. :lol:

Jake: "We don't need money."

Nog: "Then why do you need mine?"

:lol:
 
^^See, there you go. It's not that citizens of the UFP never have any money, just that they don't need it. It's optional; some people have money and use it, while others are satisfied with what they can get from the nearest replicator.
 
Yeah...I'm thinkin' that the practical reason for the Federation not needing any money...is simply the fact that they have replicators.

Why buy basic necessities--when you can have them materialize outta thin air?

I'd think, as others have said, that money kinda exists in the UFP--but for luxeries--I.E, pets, books, specific stuff that would be REALLY hard to replicate (after all, pets are ALIVE...and while book materials can be replicated, there are still the words of the book, which the machines know nothing about--unless, of course, the replicators are connected to the 'Net....)

Still...there's got to be some sort of incentive for people to hold jobs--and work to the best of their ability.

Maybe this is where credits come in--backed by latinum, no doubt.

As for Jake...remember that Nog said, "It's not my fault that YOUR RACE abandoned currency...."

So, it's not neccesarily the UFP...just Earth.

BTW...about the Bank of Bolius....

Isn't Bolius...a Federation planet?

So apparently, the UFP has banks. Hmm....
 
^As Timo pointed out, that could simply be for holding foreign currency or precious elements used in lieu of currency for exchanges between stellar entities.

That said, I relunctantly agree with Sci and others who see Trek as a enlightened welfare state, with basic needs provided for and acquisitiveness downgraded as a social virtue, but not wholly lacking in codified system of exchange. I know I've tried to come up with a money-less economy for some of my own science-fiction, and just didn't have the vision to do so, eventually reverting to another welfare state sort of setup. Which is a shame, because I have fond memories of barter-based economies.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Yeah...I'm thinkin' that the practical reason for the Federation not needing any money...is simply the fact that they have replicators.

Why buy basic necessities--when you can have them materialize outta thin air?

Well, to be fair, replicators don't exactly do that. They have to have some kind of original material to make the replicated stuff out of. And they need energy to operate as well. And they must be maintained, kept working in optimal condition. None of those things are free.

There was a book I read once, I can't remember the title, in which something very much like a replicator is invented. It didn't replicate, it copied - anything fed into it. You want to know what happened next? Society quickly degenerated into a brutal slave state: Anyone who had these devices was a slave owner, and those who *didn't* have them, were the slaves...
 
Replicators only need energy to work, because they operate on the principles of converting energy to matter and back again.
The computer has data on variety of stuff it can replicate (or formulas to be exact), it doesn't need raw material of any kind.

As for Federation economy ...
It's quite simple to encompass the idea that money in any form simply doesn't exist.
Many statements back this up clearly.
People would only 'buy' something because they are dealing with merchants that use such terms and economic systems.

Most of the thing the TV shows portrayed was essentially exchange of resources for something else.
The term 'bought' and similar ones that are used in contemporary times were merely used by writers so they can have the common folk 'relate' to something from Trek.

As for Kirk 'earning his pay for the week' ... give me a break.
It's a mere expression used today mostly to commend someone on doing fine work.
At times, it's used in a literal capacity, but most of the time it's not.

Capitalism is not part of human nature.
It's a made up construct to begin with.
Greed even exists in Trek when it comes to some individuals ... not for money but materialistic aspect for the most part.
Humans that were doing various things for 'money' in Trek associated themselves with people and systems that use those aspects because it was appealing to them.

Not all humans will like the way society works and they will prefer to do something that is completely opposite.
 
The one thing I've been wondering is, in the system you guys are discussing would people need to pay bills, and rent and stuff like that?
 
The one thing I've been wondering is, in the system you guys are discussing would people need to pay bills, and rent and stuff like that?

In a world of effectively unlimited resources (due to replicators and complete recycling as well as the resources of the galaxy) and unlimited energy (due to solar power from millions of stars), I don't see any need to bill people for things, since such billing exists in response to scarcity -- there's only so much of a resource to go around, so you need a limiting mechanism to discourage people from taking it unless they can provide something to compensate for it.

Rent, though? Maybe. After all, living space is not unlimited. If Earth's population were low enough that there was plenty of room to go around, then rent probably wouldn't be necessary; but ST's Earth probably has a considerably higher population. On the other hand, given that nobody needs money to survive, the landlords of a given piece of real estate might allow people to live there simply out of the goodness of their hearts.

Personally, I think that even in a "replicator"-based economy, there would still be a need for money, because of intellectual property rights on the patterns for creating things. In an information economy, value resides in information rather than physical resources. You wouldn't need to pay for labor, materials, delivery, etc., but the owner of the design of whatever piece of clothing, furniture, or whatever you were replicating would be entitled to a royalty. Unless it were a public-domain design, but if you wanted something more distinctive or perhaps higher in quality, you'd have to pay for it. Like the difference between fanfiction and pro novels.
 
^ I'm not so sure. If nobody needs money, then performance in intellectual tasks could be prestige-based rather than salaried work. Since basic needs are already provided for, then you're working for the love of the craft and/or desire to make a contribution to your society; everything is public domain (that isn't classified Starfleet), with edited and peer reviewed publications providing the most prestige, and those who wish to pursue careers rather than dabble (since, again, they don't actually need money) do so by outperforming others who 'work' in the same field, gaining the name recognition that translate to further opportunities to work for/in cutting-edge or otherwise well-regarded institutions. The real reward is the recognition of your peers. I know if I didn't have bills to pay, I'd freely distribute my writings and research, to be able to reach as many people in as unfettered a means as possible.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
I think that 'Author, Author' proved that there are still people in the 24th century who are making 'money' off of intellectual property.
 
It's been a while, but I don't recall any discussion of money in "Author, Author". The Doctor was being denied his moral right to exert control over the integrity of the text.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Agreed ... artistic creativity was never subjected to 'money' in Author Author for example.
It's more along the lines of being recognized for the work you do and the fame that goes with it if the work is liked by enough people (considered a success).

What the publisher in Voyager ultimately did was violate the Doctors rights to control his work ... one could also say it almost went to the point where the publisher wanted to take all the credit for Doctor's work.

We also have to take into consideration that the people in the 24th century likely think in a completely different capacity.
If a big enough amount of people push for a radical change that eliminates money from society, then it can be done.
This is why humans who set off to 'buy' things were mostly associated with organizations outside of UFP were in small amount.

Also ... what is essentially a premise behind Trek is that different cultures from Earth even set aside their differences to work together.
The differences from culture to culture would still exist ... however, humans made a decision not to kill each other over their differences.
 
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