Moffatt and friend
- Thread starter JRoss
- Start date
@JDRoss you've given one example where it has worked. I gave an example where it has been negative to the show. Why are you suggesting this in the first place? Is it because you didn't like series five in the first place or Moffat's work? As someone else pointed out why is it that no one gives RTD credit for reviving Doctor Who in the first place? You can dislike his work all you want but at least give him credit for bringing it back in the first place. How did he ruin it? Has the show been canceled? This just seems like another excuse to have an RTD/Moffat bashing thread.
Opinions of the episode aside, what makes you think Gatiss, or anyone else in the co-showrunner role would have been inclined to say this? Or have you just grasped hold of an idea and turned into wishful thinking?
Fringe might have a dozen producers, which are basically the writers in the writers room, but only one or two people actually make a decision. It's their call, not the dozen of producers.
And, again, JNT wanted to LEAVE. But the BBC kept saying, if you leave we'll cancel the show. So, he stayed.
Oh well if people on the IMDB boards say it then it must be true
And yeah RTD ruined the show, ruined it right into the ground, I mean nobody watches it, the BBC make no money from merchandise and it's been canned, right?
Oh no, that's right, none of the above is true!
More shows could do with being ruined by RTD and Moffat I think.
I'll never be Davies' #1 fan, but you can't say he didn't make a popular show.
Meanwhile, I never watch Fringe but isn't it on the verge of being cancelled whist Dr Who, well isn't?
Okay, that thing where I don't make myself clear enough has happened yet again. I have noticed among fans in every forum I have visited, including this one, and in television reviews that there is an overly-negative slant against RTD. I think that he was a lot better than everyone says. I also like SM's work very much. Well, I like him better as a writer than as a producer.
On Fringe: created by JJ Abrams, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman. These guys were responsible for Xena, Lost and Alias, among others. They are known for creating compelling television that ends up dragging on for far too long. Additional producers have been taken from the writing staff and regular directors and include Jeff Pinkner, JH Wyman, Akiva Goldsman, Bryan Burk and Joe Chappelle. Each of these men are talented, responsible for some great stuff, but also for flops. For instance Akiva Goldsman wrote both A Beautiful Mind (for which he won an Oscar) and Batman and Robin (which snagged him a Razzie nomination). Without input from everyone, the show could veer into inanity.
I think RTD started strong, hit a major snag in Series 3, recovered, but by then the damage was done in the public opinion. SM was like a treat every year; his episodes were something to await with anticipation. I just think that he might need help as a producer. With, say, Gattiss helping him to make some decisions, maybe the Silurian episodes would have been more exciting, or The Beast Below could have been filled out a bit better.
PS AdmiralYoung How did you know that my middle name starts with the letter "D?"
On Fringe: created by JJ Abrams, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman. These guys were responsible for Xena, Lost and Alias, among others. They are known for creating compelling television that ends up dragging on for far too long. Additional producers have been taken from the writing staff and regular directors and include Jeff Pinkner, JH Wyman, Akiva Goldsman, Bryan Burk and Joe Chappelle. Each of these men are talented, responsible for some great stuff, but also for flops. For instance Akiva Goldsman wrote both A Beautiful Mind (for which he won an Oscar) and Batman and Robin (which snagged him a Razzie nomination). Without input from everyone, the show could veer into inanity.
I think RTD started strong, hit a major snag in Series 3, recovered, but by then the damage was done in the public opinion. SM was like a treat every year; his episodes were something to await with anticipation. I just think that he might need help as a producer. With, say, Gattiss helping him to make some decisions, maybe the Silurian episodes would have been more exciting, or The Beast Below could have been filled out a bit better.
PS AdmiralYoung How did you know that my middle name starts with the letter "D?"
^ I'm psychic?
As much as I might have quibbles with Moffat's creative direction, there is no conceivable way that Gatiss of all people is a solution to the problem.
I have to disagree.. I think that Moffat is epic in his vision of Doctor who.. he brought back a Troughton sense of Doctor who.. which is fantastic to me, cause the Troughton series had some major milestones, and what is odd and depressing, that era of Doctor who is the one that suffered from the most lost due to BBC incompetence..
stay with me..
With that said, the feel and the overall arc that Moffat fed into the 1st season was excellent.. he brought the quirky Doctor back, and chucked the RTD over indulgent, extremely Gay rights, and multi cultural rights friendly show in the bin.. not that I have anything against such choices.. but honestly RTD did his best to make the show a social statement, and not concentrate on the overall story..it just always felt like every chance he got he would stick in some social view points, and take advantage of pointing out that he is for this cause or that in some way..
stay with me..
Now that said RTD does have something in common with a famous all in charge director of a show quite similar..classic Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry..classic trek was very much a social commentary in disguise as a scifi show..this was mainly to relate to the viewers cause such a market was very small at that time, most of the TV fans were into leave it to beaver, and westerns..much is the climate in the UK only their shows are much more mindless and unsettling.. (is it me or are half the programs in the UK like MTV reality and Bravo take aways?? very sad business..)
RTD came in and to reboot the series it may have been necessary to relate to some of the social issues and draw in a fan base, which may have been overly done, but it did draw in a large following regardless..
I equate Moffat's run with that of Rick Berman..he was the guy who Took the Star Trek TNG series, and ran with it.. spawning Deep Space Nine, movie Franchises, and Voyager..
Berman's Trek was more focused on the universe itself, and not so much concerned with overly commenting on social issues of the day, rather social issues imagined for the 25th century and so on.. it was more about the human spirit and had a much larger overall feeling of adventure in that time..
Moffat has done well to make you feel like the classic Doctor who is back, but better then ever.. great show, great season, and a much better direction overall..now if we can just get them to release a better police box toy for the 11TH doctor who fans, we'll be set.
well that is my take anyways...
stay with me..
With that said, the feel and the overall arc that Moffat fed into the 1st season was excellent.. he brought the quirky Doctor back, and chucked the RTD over indulgent, extremely Gay rights, and multi cultural rights friendly show in the bin.. not that I have anything against such choices.. but honestly RTD did his best to make the show a social statement, and not concentrate on the overall story..it just always felt like every chance he got he would stick in some social view points, and take advantage of pointing out that he is for this cause or that in some way..
stay with me..
Now that said RTD does have something in common with a famous all in charge director of a show quite similar..classic Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry..classic trek was very much a social commentary in disguise as a scifi show..this was mainly to relate to the viewers cause such a market was very small at that time, most of the TV fans were into leave it to beaver, and westerns..much is the climate in the UK only their shows are much more mindless and unsettling.. (is it me or are half the programs in the UK like MTV reality and Bravo take aways?? very sad business..)
RTD came in and to reboot the series it may have been necessary to relate to some of the social issues and draw in a fan base, which may have been overly done, but it did draw in a large following regardless..
I equate Moffat's run with that of Rick Berman..he was the guy who Took the Star Trek TNG series, and ran with it.. spawning Deep Space Nine, movie Franchises, and Voyager..
Berman's Trek was more focused on the universe itself, and not so much concerned with overly commenting on social issues of the day, rather social issues imagined for the 25th century and so on.. it was more about the human spirit and had a much larger overall feeling of adventure in that time..
Moffat has done well to make you feel like the classic Doctor who is back, but better then ever.. great show, great season, and a much better direction overall..now if we can just get them to release a better police box toy for the 11TH doctor who fans, we'll be set.
well that is my take anyways...
I never said they weren't focused on social commentary, what I said was they weren't overly focused on it..a big difference..between being overly obsessed with it, and just touching on it as part of an overall plot..
that is your opinion, though I do not know "how clearly my knowledge of UK TV is limited" seeing as how you don't know me, or my viewing habits..that seems like such a crummy assumption to put out there...
as for the gay and diverse cast.. no I have nothing against it, but when it becomes much of the focus of the show then it kinda gets a bit annoying..must we see every episode with some reference to it, I get it, RTD likes interracial couples, and Gay men..(apparently no gay women are represented.. and why no cross dressing?? lets go for it all then shall we??..)
like I said, for me, you may disagree, but for me, it was a bit overly done, especially when you cross reference it with Torchwood..
wait let me save you some time here..
I am a white heterosexual male.. so that instantly makes me a racist bigot..there, that should make it easy..
Oh and even though I am a Brit, and live in the US, that means I know jack about UK TV..My point was - having a diverse cast & gay characters isn't social commentary in the same way as Trek.
Trek deals with issues in a way Who almost never does.
Yes there are interracial couples in Who but there are in a lot of British TV and like Who they are usually presented with no comment on the wider issues.
I presumed you were including the lesbians (the two in Gridlock and Sky in Midnight) in your comments as otherwise your extreme gay rights is basically Jack and the odd reference here or there.
Still missing this supposed excessive social commentary.
Never said you were a bigot thanks - just think you're wrong.
Trek deals with issues in a way Who almost never does.
Yes there are interracial couples in Who but there are in a lot of British TV and like Who they are usually presented with no comment on the wider issues.
I presumed you were including the lesbians (the two in Gridlock and Sky in Midnight) in your comments as otherwise your extreme gay rights is basically Jack and the odd reference here or there.
Still missing this supposed excessive social commentary.
Never said you were a bigot thanks - just think you're wrong.
It may be your take on the matter, but you're wrong on pretty much every single point in that.
Stay with me.....
misinformed and truly ignorant viewpoint on British Broadcasting and.....
Stay with me....
.....that is a even greater misinformed opinion on Star Trek.
Oh and as for the OP pushing forward his agenda that Fringe is brilliant, I beg to differ, there is an old saying, two many cooks spoil the broth and Fringe truly does suffer in that regard.
There was a lesbian couple in Gridlock (the two old ladies) and a female character in Midnight refered to splitting up with a female partner I believe so there have been gay women on Who (and we had Tosh and that bird out of My Family lezzing up in Torchwood, plus Gwen snogging another woman as well).
Whilst some of RTDs social commentary feels more than a little sledge-hammery doesn't it say something about how far TV has come that homosexuality can be addressed as the everyday occurance it is rather than having to couch it in sci-fi terms (Oh look Riker's fallen in love with an alien who has no gender and could be a bloke, aren't we edgy, even though it's obviously Amy from the A-Team
)
Whilst some of RTDs social commentary feels more than a little sledge-hammery doesn't it say something about how far TV has come that homosexuality can be addressed as the everyday occurance it is rather than having to couch it in sci-fi terms (Oh look Riker's fallen in love with an alien who has no gender and could be a bloke, aren't we edgy, even though it's obviously Amy from the A-Team
)
I knew about the lezzies..I was trying a tongue and cheek irony type thing, but it obviously didn't come out the way I expected.. still it is nice to take a point of view, and get instantly dog-piled on by 4 people..I can see the "I disagree, and here is why.." but to get the you're and idiot, you know nothing, and your assumptions are wrong because you live in the US you git..ummm yeah..so much for civil discourse..
Didn't someone say there were level headed and smart people on the internet??
besides most of you missed the point, I wasn't picking on the subject matter, I was trying to defend why RTD may have been overly focused on those subjects.. Doctor Who had been off the air for quite awhile.. and so Brit- Scifi was on a bit of a hiatus..to relate to an audience and draw a bigger diverse crowd he went abit over board in my opinion..that may have been necessary in his opinion to generate buzz, like Kirk kissing Ohura in classic Trek much like Roddenberry had done..
but noooo, the focus is a knee jerk reaction to what seems like bigotry. Geeeez! talk about sensitive...
with Moffat and Berman, my point was that the show was now established, so social commentary, while present... was not the main focus, as there was more of a "overall canonical universal focus" on the events within the series.. it was more Doctor Who universe centered..
Didn't someone say there were level headed and smart people on the internet??
besides most of you missed the point, I wasn't picking on the subject matter, I was trying to defend why RTD may have been overly focused on those subjects.. Doctor Who had been off the air for quite awhile.. and so Brit- Scifi was on a bit of a hiatus..to relate to an audience and draw a bigger diverse crowd he went abit over board in my opinion..that may have been necessary in his opinion to generate buzz, like Kirk kissing Ohura in classic Trek much like Roddenberry had done..
but noooo, the focus is a knee jerk reaction to what seems like bigotry. Geeeez! talk about sensitive...
with Moffat and Berman, my point was that the show was now established, so social commentary, while present... was not the main focus, as there was more of a "overall canonical universal focus" on the events within the series.. it was more Doctor Who universe centered..
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I don't think RTD was focused on
because he wanted to draw in a bigger audience, or to generate a buzz (well Torchwood maybe!) I think he focuses on those things because he happens to believe in them, and these issues were at work in classic Who, they just had to be done more subtley because we weren't in a place where these things could be discussed openly.