modern myths

[Captaindemotion]

^ For years and years, people have been sending letters to Sherlock Holmes, c/o 221B Baker Street, thinking he's a real detective.

Even as a child, I couldn't figure that one out. Okay, so they might have thought that he was a real character, fair enough, but did it not occur to them that he might just have died, given that Conan Doyle wrote the f*cking stories a century ago?!

 

[RJDiogenes]

For a character to become a myth, he has to be iconic in some way; and must be connected to some real time and place, however fictionalized or idealized. For this reason, I agree that Star Trek will never be truly mythic (sadly), for it exists in an entirely fictional context. The Wizard Of Oz is more likely to become mythic, because it concerns a character from a real place traveling to a fantasy world.

Sherlock Holmes and Tarzan will undoubtedly survive centuries, and probably millennia, as myths. I suspect that Indiana Jones might, as the distillation of an iconic ideal. Superman almost certainly will, and possibly Batman.

In terms of real people, there are probably many who will evolve into myths. Some of the Founding Fathers are practically there already, as well as Abraham Lincoln. Lewis & Clark, Buffalo Bill, Roy Rogers. Elvis, too, very likely.

All of these characters, real and fictional, exist in a setting that has become as stylized and iconic as they themselves have.

 

[captcalhoun]

so has Churchill in Britain.

although apparently a lot of people these days think he's just the talking bull dog off the insurance ads...

 

[wamdue]

so has Churchill in Britain.

although apparently a lot of people these days think he's just the talking bull dog off the insurance ads...

to be fair the ads are on alot, and its not like schools go out of its way to teach kids about British historical figures anymore, too busy encouraging them to watch/perform Romeo & Julian.

 

[diankra]

Thinking through what you say below, and wamdue's post earlier suggesting some 2200 world after a collapse of civilisation...

I could imagine Star Trek surviving in a culture where stories have survived only through the oral tradition: but in a very garbled form (as a precedent, the Robin Hood legend combines at least three separate stories originally scattered over 200 years - the outlaw Robin Hood, Maid Marian, and the bad Sheriff of Nottingham).
So instead of knowing about the reality of 20th century space travel, and the fiction of 23rd century Star Trek, a post-disaster society might merge them so that the legend ran. 'In the old days, people went to the Moon. And then Captain Kirk and his friend Spock (who came from the Moon) went further, on the United Space Shuttle Enterprise'.

Batman? Possibly... but equally, he's a reinvention of Robin Hood - the man who breaks the law to serve justice - so which one would last?
Superman? Why should he be the one to survive rather than, say, Hercules?
Lewis and Clark? Depends how many north americans there are - I'd never heard of them until someone explained the Lois and Clark joke to me!

For a character to become a myth, he has to be iconic in some way; and must be connected to some real time and place, however fictionalized or idealized. For this reason, I agree that Star Trek will never be truly mythic (sadly), for it exists in an entirely fictional context. The Wizard Of Oz is more likely to become mythic, because it concerns a character from a real place traveling to a fantasy world.

Sherlock Holmes and Tarzan will undoubtedly survive centuries, and probably millennia, as myths. I suspect that Indiana Jones might, as the distillation of an iconic ideal. Superman almost certainly will, and possibly Batman.

In terms of real people, there are probably many who will evolve into myths. Some of the Founding Fathers are practically there already, as well as Abraham Lincoln. Lewis & Clark, Buffalo Bill, Roy Rogers. Elvis, too, very likely.

All of these characters, real and fictional, exist in a setting that has become as stylized and iconic as they themselves have.

 

[wamdue]

im not meaning to create a "collapse of civilisation" type event, but it does appear like the thread is going that way, it hasnt taking something like that for people to start to confuse Sherlock Holmes with reality.

in theory such a collapse would make it ALOT easier for todays fiction to become myth, as in the future it should be very easy to tell what is real and what isnt.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ I suppose it would depend upon the nature of the collapse, whether it was just a breaking up of large-scale government and infrastructure, or a war where many people are killed and historical and cultural records destroyed.

So instead of knowing about the reality of 20th century space travel, and the fiction of 23rd century Star Trek, a post-disaster society might merge them so that the legend ran. 'In the old days, people went to the Moon. And then Captain Kirk and his friend Spock (who came from the Moon) went further, on the United Space Shuttle Enterprise'.

It's not impossible, I suppose, and a collapse of civilization would make it more likely.

Batman? Possibly... but equally, he's a reinvention of Robin Hood - the man who breaks the law to serve justice - so which one would last?

I wouldn't say they are the same character. Robin Hood is a dashing, inspirational figure who robbed from the rich and gave to the poor; Batman is a grim avenger and a loner. They are iconic in much different ways.

Superman? Why should he be the one to survive rather than, say, Hercules?

Why not both? Superman has much in common with other figures besides Hercules-- Moses, for one-- and they are different enough in context and detail to survive.

Lewis and Clark? Depends how many north americans there are - I'd never heard of them until someone explained the Lois and Clark joke to me!

Possibly. It seems to me that they represent the iconic explorer figures, but I could be wrong.

 

[diankra]

Lewis and Clark? Depends how many north americans there are - I'd never heard of them until someone explained the Lois and Clark joke to me!

Possibly. It seems to me that they represent the iconic explorer figures, but I could be wrong.

In North America, yes, but perhaps not in the UK (if I'm any guide), where it's Captains Cook and Scott and Raleigh and maybe Stanley and Livingstone who fill the same 'mythic' role. The Asian nations presumably have their own legendary explorers as well (and not just Marco Polo).
Call it the 'Benedict Arnold effect'. He's another one who every American knows ("as bad as Benedict Arnold..."), but Europeans have to work out from context that he's a Quisling, a Petain (though they're fading, and he's lasted).

 

[wamdue]

actually I wonder if Xena would get added to the Greek Myths, normally a character like hers might get forgetten over the years but given her connection to Hercules it got get confused.

 

[RJDiogenes]

In North America, yes, but perhaps not in the UK (if I'm any guide), where it's Captains Cook and Scott and Raleigh and maybe Stanley and Livingstone who fill the same 'mythic' role.

I did think about Stanley and Livingstone, but I wasn't sure how much people know about them, aside from the famous quote.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Who knows? Maybe thousands of years from now, people will have no way of knowing that Sherlock Holmes didn't really exist or that Harry Houdini did.

Sadly, there are already many people who would struggle to tell you which of them was real and which was fictional.

as sad as that is, that is part of the character becoming a myth.

I wonder if part of that is because Sherlock Holmes is public domain so he's used in many fanciful stories just as historical characters are.

I think the Superman origin story may approach mythic proportions. My nephew knows the Batman Jingle Bells song (even a verse I've never heard) and recognizes the character but I don't know if he's ever seen him in a story.

 

[wamdue]

Sadly, there are already many people who would struggle to tell you which of them was real and which was fictional.

as sad as that is, that is part of the character becoming a myth.

I wonder if part of that is because Sherlock Holmes is public domain so he's used in many fanciful stories just as historical characters are.

im betting that has alot to do with it.

 

[Holdfast]

Sadly, there are already many people who would struggle to tell you which of them was real and which was fictional.

as sad as that is, that is part of the character becoming a myth.

I wonder if part of that is because Sherlock Holmes is public domain so he's used in many fanciful stories just as historical characters are.

Interesting point. I like this line of thinking.

The more I ponder, the more I think Holmes has a very good chance of becoming a myth, and not just the Holmes character himself but Professor Moriarty too (who, let's face it, is featured in only one story, though named as an aside in a couple of others). But he's already gained vastly more public prominence than would be expected from just the books.

 

[wamdue]

^ his appearances in TNG speak to that.

 

[diankra]

^ For years and years, people have been sending letters to Sherlock Holmes, c/o 221B Baker Street, thinking he's a real detective.

Even as a child, I couldn't figure that one out. Okay, so they might have thought that he was a real character, fair enough, but did it not occur to them that he might just have died, given that Conan Doyle wrote the f*cking stories a century ago?!

A slight excuse for that (and a slightly late reply, but it only occurred to me this afternoon)...
While the Holmes of the Conan-Doyle stories was born in 1856 (that's the most popular estimate of the Sherlockians), the Basil Rathbone Holmes who fought the Nazis in the 1940s movies could well have been alive into the 1980s. So (if you think he's real in the first place), there is a slight excuse, at least until then...

PS: The 'public domain' point about Holmes is an interesting one, but... I thought the character came out of copyright 50 years after Conan Doyle's death in 1980, and then in 1988 went back into copyright for another 12 years when the copyright laws were amended to make it a 70-years-after-death period (the gap in Moriarty's TNG appearances was partly a consequence of that).
But there were definitely an awful lot of non-Conan Doyle Holmes pastiches even before 1980.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Actually, we found out recently in another Thread that while many of the stories have fallen in the Public Domain, the Conan Doyle Estate holds a Trademark on Holmes and other prominent characters.

 

[Capt. Vulcan]

Doubt it would happen unless there was some sort of cataclysmic event that wiped out modern civilization and erased much of our collected history. Even 100 years from now, all someone would have to do is look up the character in question to know if they were real or not. How far in the past from now do we have to look before we find an individual that we're not sure existed, and how much simpler was the archiving of information? Only one library would have to survive.

 

[Lindley]

1) Superman, everyone knows the story of Superman a story that has been retold again & again, about a hero who helps people and fights evil.

I know he can fly and I know the classic opening narration. I know he's from another planet. I know kyrptonite is dangerous to him but no specifics. That's pretty much all I can say for sure about Superman.

 

[wamdue]

^ myths dont need to be anymore detailed than that

 

[LutherSloan]

Reagan has turned into a myth. I just read a good book about it. The sad part is the whole thing was deliberate on the part of a group of conservatives. But basically they have ingrained in the US public mind that Reagan was solely responsible for the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the eventual collapse of Russia. Same goes for shrinking the federal government (expanded it) and lowering taxes (raised taxes repeatedly during his two terms). Then they of course leave out Iran-Contra, which was a bigger crime than Watergate but it happened during a period when Americans were still dealing with Watergate. Because of this, few questioned Reagan when he said that all of this was going on behind his back without him knowing about it.

Almost all Presidents end up becoming mythologized, but it's disturbing how the Reagan Legacy Project was doing this artificially to get it in the public mindset.