"Modern" humans and neanderthals...

[Admiral Buzzkill]

So, the latest version is that homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapiens neanderthalensis interbred after all:

Link

Well...duh.

Human evolution, and the neanderthals in particular, is something that's fascinated me since I was a kid; it's what I studied, a dog's age ago, in college. And it's intrigued me ever since that it seems like the scientific consensus on whether "our" ancestors did the mattress mambo with "those guys" flips one hundred and eighty degrees every five years or so. And that there's enough public interest in the question that it makes its way into the popular press when it does - it is, after all, the eternal question that human beings have always striven to answer: who's sleeping with whom?. That, and there was great deal of racism, mostly unconscious, in the beginnings of anthropology as an area of study several centuies ago.

I've always favored one side of the debate, 'cause the truth about people is pretty obvious: of course we'd hit that.

 

[Buddy Peabody]

I wonder when it became taboo for anatomically modern humans to screw outside their own species. The distinctions between homo sapiens and its close cousins probably weren't so great, but at some point after they died out it must have become generally unacceptable for humans to screw anything that moved.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I remember hearing about this a while ago, but I guess that must've been during the most recent flip-flop. I guess this was the ancient version of "fuck 'til we're all the same color."

 

[YellowSubmarine]

There's still debate over whether they were separate species or the same species, and I do think that the latter is more popular now? So they could as well be considered a subspecies of humans, or a race of humans, and yes, of course that we inbred. There are is so little difference in appearance between a Neanderthal and a modern human that it would be crazy to think they did not, the question is how much we did. It's not fair to compare it with mating with completely different species. Neanderthals were probably the only species close to us in the period that we're talking about.

 

[ITL]

There's still debate over whether they were separate species or the same species, and I do think that the latter is more popular now? So they could as well be considered a subspecies of humans, or a race of humans, and yes, of course that we inbred. There are is so little difference in appearance between a Neanderthal and a modern human that it would be crazy to think they did not, the question is how much we did. It's not fair to compare it with mating with completely different species. Neanderthals were probably the only species close to us in the period that we're talking about.

I thought that their status as a separate species (sub species, whatever) wasn't in doubt...that they were descended from a homonid line that left Africa a long time before modern humans evolved there. I could be wrong, though. In fact, I probably am...

 

[Robert Maxwell]

There's still debate over whether they were separate species or the same species, and I do think that the latter is more popular now? So they could as well be considered a subspecies of humans, or a race of humans, and yes, of course that we inbred. There are is so little difference in appearance between a Neanderthal and a modern human that it would be crazy to think they did not, the question is how much we did. It's not fair to compare it with mating with completely different species. Neanderthals were probably the only species close to us in the period that we're talking about.

Well, I think part of it is also that we've grown to think of species as wholly separate categories with clear lines between them, and the idea of two species interbreeding--especially species of humans--is just "icky."

What we've found is that speciation is not so clear-cut. There are numerous animals that are distinctly different species but that can breed, and even have offspring that aren't sterile (sterility being the typical result of interspecies breeding, when it is even possible.) To think that two species of humans were related closely enough for this to be possible and even prevalent is not that far-fetched, I think it just disrupts what most people think of when they hear the term "species."

 

[SPCTRE]

I've always favored one side of the debate, 'cause the truth about people is pretty obvious: of course we'd hit that.

I would have to agree

 

[scotpens]

. . . What we’ve found is that speciation is not so clear-cut. There are numerous animals that are distinctly different species but that can breed, and even have offspring that aren't sterile (sterility being the typical result of interspecies breeding, when it is even possible.) To think that two species of humans were related closely enough for this to be possible and even prevalent is not that far-fetched, I think it just disrupts what most people think of when they hear the term “species.”

I always assumed that, if Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons were capable of interbreeding and producing healthy, fertile offspring, by definition that made them a single species. Has the meaning of “species” changed since I was in school?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

. . . What we’ve found is that speciation is not so clear-cut. There are numerous animals that are distinctly different species but that can breed, and even have offspring that aren't sterile (sterility being the typical result of interspecies breeding, when it is even possible.) To think that two species of humans were related closely enough for this to be possible and even prevalent is not that far-fetched, I think it just disrupts what most people think of when they hear the term “species.”

I always assumed that, if Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons were capable of interbreeding and producing healthy, fertile offspring, by definition that made them a single species. Has the meaning of “species” changed since I was in school?

Investigate the species problem. Speciation, as I said, is not as clear-cut as you might think.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I just had the passing thought that perhaps trolls from Scandinavian mythology (not the Internet variety) are based on the distant memories of the co-existence of our ancestors with Neanderthals. From Wikipedia:

"In Old Norse sources, trolls are said to dwell in isolated mountains, rocks, and caves, sometimes live together (usually as father-and-daughter or mother-and-son), and are rarely described as helpful or friendly.
...
Later, in Scandinavian folklore, trolls become defined as a particular type of being, generally held to be larger than humans and notably ugly. Numerous tales about trolls are recorded, in which they are frequently described as being extremely old, very strong, but slow and dim-witted."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll

Obviously, I don't believe that sunlight turned Neanderthals into stone.

 

[Meredith]

Duh, some Europeans and Asians do exhibit some facial characteristics that make look sorta like the reconstructions of Neanderthals computer morphed halfway with modern humans.

Humans like to have sex and when they are drunk/desperate they will have sex with anything even vaguely resembling a human. So this was bound to happen.

Heck all animals like to get jiggy with other animals, even ones separated by hundreds of millions of years of evolution:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=przI4rCxDlk[/yt]

 

[Meredith]

Basque / Neanderthal theory:

http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The explanation of Rhesus factors in that link would predict that I was unlikely to be born as my father was Rh+ and my mother was Rh-. I'm an Rh- second child (with an Rh+ older sibling) so there was no problem with infant haemolytic disease. Wouldn't that have been the case with any Rh- child gestated after the first Rh+ one? I think the logic may be a bit iffy unless I'm interpreting the article incorrectly.

 

[Deckerd]

I was given an injection after the birth of my daughter because her blood type was different to mine. No idea what that was all about though.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Way not my area of expertise, I'm afraid. The subject looks to be too complex for my random, and maybe vacuous, speculation based on looking at a Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolytic_disease_of_the_newborn

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

What we've found is that speciation is not so clear-cut. There are numerous animals that are distinctly different species but that can breed, and even have offspring that aren't sterile (sterility being the typical result of interspecies breeding, when it is even possible.) To think that two species of humans were related closely enough for this to be possible and even prevalent is not that far-fetched, I think it just disrupts what most people think of when they hear the term "species."

To support your point, a good real-life example of this would be the housecat and the serval, where at least some of the offspring are fertile. I think it may depend on the sex of the animal, with one sex being perfectly fertile and one not, which is at least enough for some breeding to occur.

This even involves a different genus yet at least some offspring are fertile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_cat

 

[Robert Maxwell]

What we've found is that speciation is not so clear-cut. There are numerous animals that are distinctly different species but that can breed, and even have offspring that aren't sterile (sterility being the typical result of interspecies breeding, when it is even possible.) To think that two species of humans were related closely enough for this to be possible and even prevalent is not that far-fetched, I think it just disrupts what most people think of when they hear the term "species."

To support your point, a good real-life example of this would be the housecat and the serval, where at least some of the offspring are fertile. I think it may depend on the sex of the animal, with one sex being perfectly fertile and one not, which is at least enough for some breeding to occur.

This even involves a different genus yet at least some offspring are fertile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_cat

I understand polar bears and brown bears can also produce fertile offspring.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've heard that as well...I just know more about cats.

 

[I Grok Spock]

I was an Rh baby - I had to have a full blood transfusion immediately following birth.

And to think, all these years, I've been insulted when people called me a Neanderthal.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm just amazed we didn't slaughter the Neanderthals, which until now was what I had always suspected. Killing anything that moves is just as much in character with us as doing anything that moves.