MLB Offseason 2013-2014

[Timby]

...and don't be a hater. Robertson is more than capable of making a huge contribution this year, providing he stays healthy - which is pretty much the story for the Yankees this year.

Brian Roberts has a career OPS of .761, and his slugging percentage has averaged .301 over the past three seasons. That's slugging, not batting average or on-base. The only way he is even remotely capable of making a "huge contribution" is if you live on a planet where crack grows on trees.

 

[Scout101]

And no matter how many times you say you're 'not sure' whether DFA'ed players count towards the luxury tax, doesn't make it true or even with discussing. They DO count. MLB does guaranteed contracts, it's not the NFL. Yankees are paying his full salary, and it counts. Only thing that changed is that he doesn't have to show up anymore.

Only caveat is that if another team signs him this season, the new team only has to pay him the MLB minimum salary (around 500k), and the Yankees don't pay that part. They'd be on the hook for the remaining 1.9 Mil in that case.

Otherwise, why wouldn't you just DFA Arod and save 100 mil? Right...

And everyone must seem like a hater when you're sitting around in Yankees footie pajamas. Come on dude, at least pretend like it's a rational discussion. Other people here are fans of teams, but can discuss other teams (or even their own in a non-'we're the best' light) rationally. Or at the very least, use google or baseball-reference to put facts or numbers to the things being discussed.

"provided they stay healthy" is a nonsense term on a team who has an average infield age of 37, and ALL of the starters are coming off significant injuries. Roberts' injury history meaning he hasn't played a full season in over 4 years. Provided they all have perfect health, get over the physical declines, and de-age 10 years, maybe they'll be decent. Since that's not happening, you're more just hoping you can field a team without using single-A scrubs for large portions.

You can HOPE for nice results, but nothing indicates they are likely. Stop talking about how your boys should be getting fitted for rings. Yankees are NOT relevant right now. Old, beat up, declining players, and most importantly, no starting pitching. Oh, and no prospects, and salary money pretty much all spent. Only thing that prevents this from being a TOTAL disaster is that you still can cling to hope that Tanaka might come your way. Tough odds to sign him, and not guaranteed to actually be the savior anyway, so take that how you will. No matter how much you wish it were true (or 1997), no one's really worried about the Yankees anymore. Maybe in a few years, but to rebuild, you gotta let go of the foolish dream of having to be relevant every year, and actually rebuild. Throwing money at has-beens isn't going to get you there, and you sign them to long contracts that just kicks the rebuild further down the road.

But good luck, I guess. Red Sox made a nice leap last year, so it's not impossible. Then again, Sox had the players, just had injuries and a bumbling clusterfuck of a manager in 2012. Pitching was still good, Ells, Pedroia, and Ortiz were still there, etc. Plus had a farm system to draw on. And the Dodgers bought all our big contracts so we could start fresh there, which was nice. Reminds me, we owe them another fruit basket...

 

[Yanks]

...and don't be a hater. Robertson is more than capable of making a huge contribution this year, providing he stays healthy - which is pretty much the story for the Yankees this year.

Brian Roberts has a career OPS of .761, and his slugging percentage has averaged .301 over the past three seasons. That's slugging, not batting average or on-base. The only way he is even remotely capable of making a "huge contribution" is if you live on a planet where crack grows on trees.

Nope, he could end up being a strong #5 or #6 in the line up. He wont be in the top 4.

 

[Timby]

Alex Rodriguez suspended for 162 games. He's going to take it to federal court (since MLB violated state and federal laws in its investigation of Biogenesis, and the suspension doesn't comply with the JDA).

Break out the beer and popcorn, because this is going to be juicy.

Edit: This also ensures Project 189 will survive (the Yankees are not getting Tanaka).

 

[Yanks]

Alex Rodriguez suspended for 162 games. He's going to take it to federal court (since MLB violated state and federal laws in its investigation of Biogenesis, and the suspension doesn't comply with the JDA).

Break out the beer and popcorn, because this is going to be juicy.

Edit: This also ensures Project 189 will survive (the Yankees are not getting Tanaka).

How do you know about Tanaka?

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.

 

[Scout101]

Because you (the Yankees) suddenly care about steroids and the integrity of the game? Or just want to pull the rip cord and get out of that awful contract any way you can? If he was still hitting like 2005, doubt we'd be hearing so much from the Yankees fans about how Arod has to go. Since there's still what, 4 years? left on the contract, suddenly everyone is declaring Arod's gotta go, integrity of the game, etc.



These sorts of examples are the kind of thing that NFL actually does right. You can cut the player and still get a little benefit, but it's a huge hit against the salary cap for being dumb with the money in the first place. In MLB, Yankees get a get out of jail free card for the bad part of the contract while still getting to over-bid for the good part and enjoy the productive years. Kinda sucks, hope Arod keeps fighting, gets it reduced to the same 65 games that Braun got. Or worst case, does his 1-year ban, and shows up for the last 3 years of the deal, clean and ready to play (at his crappy, old age-riddled, non-steroided best)

 

[Yanks]

Because you (the Yankees) suddenly care about steroids and the integrity of the game? Or just want to pull the rip cord and get out of that awful contract any way you can? If he was still hitting like 2005, doubt we'd be hearing so much from the Yankees fans about how Arod has to go. Since there's still what, 4 years? left on the contract, suddenly everyone is declaring Arod's gotta go, integrity of the game, etc.



These sorts of examples are the kind of thing that NFL actually does right. You can cut the player and still get a little benefit, but it's a huge hit against the salary cap for being dumb with the money in the first place. In MLB, Yankees get a get out of jail free card for the bad part of the contract while still getting to over-bid for the good part and enjoy the productive years. Kinda sucks, hope Arod keeps fighting, gets it reduced to the same 65 games that Braun got. Or worst case, does his 1-year ban, and shows up for the last 3 years of the deal, clean and ready to play (at his crappy, old age-riddled, non-steroided best)

I guess you can make that baseless claim, but if your team had paid that you'd be wishing the same. While I want him out of baseball forever, this does not get the Yankees out of the last 61 million. He obstructed the investigation. I don't think this see the inside of a federal court though.

It does free up some cash, for sure - but I'm glad that MLB is cleaning house. They should have done this earlier.

 

[Timby]

dHere's the problem with MLB's "cleaning house" position:

- Rodriguez never failed an official test.
- Nobody except MLB and the arbitrator has seen the "evidence" that MLB purchased illegally from people formerly with Biogenesis (which compromised several legitimate government investigations)
- The suspension is completely arbitrary (it's outside of the 50 / 100 / indefinite schedule; it technically falls under the commissioner's purview but that's very sketchy).
- Not only do we not know what evidence they have, but we don't even know if it's reliable considering it was obtained in an underhanded manner from shady people.
- If MLB is so confident that Rodriguez deserves 162 games, why aren't they showing the evidence to the press?
- The suspension is significantly longer than the ones that other Biogenesis-linked players received (the most before that was 65, for Ryan Braun).

MLB's lead investigator literally fucked a witness into compliance. Since the 211-game suspension is now moot, Selig is suspending Rodriguez for the coming season, for two reasons: First, he hates Rodriguez and he's active, unlike Bonds or McGwire. Second, this is a massive favor to Hal Steinbrenner. This is as shady as it gets.

In any event, though, this will be fun to watch. Rodriguez will ask the court for an injunction. The court will have to decide whether he has a substantial likelihood of success on the merits and faces irreparable harm. The latter criteria he likely meets, the former ... well, we'll see.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

^ I suspect he'll get an injunction. Whether he ultimately wins (I'm assuming it'll go to an arbitrator first) is a big questionmark, but I can see the merits to both sides. I suspect before this whole thing is over, Rodriguez will at least get an opportunity to contest the evidence and he might win because of the way Baseball obtained it.

Nope, he could end up being a strong #5 or #6 in the line up. He wont be in the top 4.

I'm not sure that says much. It's all relative to the rest of the Yankees players.

 

[Yanks]

Won't see the inside of a federal court room.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Why are you so confident?

I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts since my experience says anything is possible in a thing like this.

 

[Timby]

Alex Rodriguez suspended for 162 games. He's going to take it to federal court (since MLB violated state and federal laws in its investigation of Biogenesis, and the suspension doesn't comply with the JDA).

Break out the beer and popcorn, because this is going to be juicy.

Edit: This also ensures Project 189 will survive (the Yankees are not getting Tanaka).

How do you know about Tanaka?

The Yankees' payroll is projecting in the high-160s right now without Rodriguez (there's some natural fuzziness to these things). There's a semi-plausible scenario where they could sign Tanaka to a structure that lowers his tax charge, dump most or all of Ichiro's contract, and do essentially nothing else and keep Project 189 intact, but it's only semi-plausible, and they still need to shore up the bullpen and infield unless Levine and Steinbrenner are drunk at the wheel. Without Tanaka, they're easily fitting under $189 million, which has been their goal since 2012.

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.

So MLB should be allowed to piss all over the collective bargaining agreement it negotiated, ostensibly in good faith, with the MLBPA, and obstruct state and federal investigations in the process, just because the commissioner decided he didn't like someone. Got it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, you finally get the union to come around to agreeing to fight steroids through a process and then deliberately ignore the process.

Although, to be fair, I actually have no problem suspending a player through circumstantial evidence instead of a drug test, but they've done it without any process and without following their policies for what that suspension should be. I understand that it's for "conduct detrimental to Baseball" or however it's phrased, but it's still insanely arbitrary and there's a real concern it's not at all a fair process.

 

[Yanks]

Why are you so confident?

I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts since my experience says anything is possible in a thing like this.

The arbitrator isn't known for siding with the league.

...and he still has a job.

Watch 60 minutes tomorrow night.

 

[Yanks]

Alex Rodriguez suspended for 162 games. He's going to take it to federal court (since MLB violated state and federal laws in its investigation of Biogenesis, and the suspension doesn't comply with the JDA).

Break out the beer and popcorn, because this is going to be juicy.

Edit: This also ensures Project 189 will survive (the Yankees are not getting Tanaka).

How do you know about Tanaka?

The Yankees' payroll is projecting in the high-160s right now without Rodriguez (there's some natural fuzziness to these things). There's a semi-plausible scenario where they could sign Tanaka to a structure that lowers his tax charge, dump most or all of Ichiro's contract, and do essentially nothing else and keep Project 189 intact, but it's only semi-plausible, and they still need to shore up the bullpen and infield unless Levine and Steinbrenner are drunk at the wheel. Without Tanaka, they're easily fitting under $189 million, which has been their goal since 2012.

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.

So MLB should be allowed to piss all over the collective bargaining agreement it negotiated, ostensibly in good faith, with the MLBPA, and obstruct state and federal investigations in the process, just because the commissioner decided he didn't like someone. Got it.

Why are you fixated on the 189 mark? They've always said it's a goal, not in cement.

I just hate the guy. I'm sure he'll play again... sadley.

 

[Timby]

Why are you so confident?

I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts since my experience says anything is possible in a thing like this.

The arbitrator isn't known for siding with the league.

...and he still has a job.

Watch 60 minutes tomorrow night.

You really don't get how this is happening. The independent arbitrator who was known for siding with the MLBPA, Shyam Das, was fired in 2012 after he made a ruling in Ryan Braun's favor due to a chain of custody issue (which, to be fair, is a really big fucking issue). That being said, when Rodriguez files suit in federal court, that has nothing to do with baseball's appeal process. The arbitration that Alidar was talking about will happen in front of a federal magistrate judge.

As for 60 Minutes, I have no interest in watching a show with no credibility interviewing a man with no credibility, talking about how he injected a guy with illegal substances, instead of how MLB fucked up actual investigations by law enforcement against him. Stay classy, CBS.

Oh and Rob Manfred (current COO of MLB; served as a lawyer for the owners during the strike) will be appearing on the program, too. It's a fucking hit piece.

How do you know about Tanaka?

The Yankees' payroll is projecting in the high-160s right now without Rodriguez (there's some natural fuzziness to these things). There's a semi-plausible scenario where they could sign Tanaka to a structure that lowers his tax charge, dump most or all of Ichiro's contract, and do essentially nothing else and keep Project 189 intact, but it's only semi-plausible, and they still need to shore up the bullpen and infield unless Levine and Steinbrenner are drunk at the wheel. Without Tanaka, they're easily fitting under $189 million, which has been their goal since 2012.

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.

So MLB should be allowed to piss all over the collective bargaining agreement it negotiated, ostensibly in good faith, with the MLBPA, and obstruct state and federal investigations in the process, just because the commissioner decided he didn't like someone. Got it.

Why are you fixated on the 189 mark? They've always said it's a goal, not in cement.

I just hate the guy. I'm sure he'll play again... sadley.

OK, you said you hated Bonds because he left the Pirates, so what's your beef with Rodriguez, who will retire as one of the best hitters in history?

As for 189, the luxury tax reset / amnesty is a one-year-only proposition. If the Yankees don't get under $189 million in 2014, they don't get the 17.5% bill, but will instead continue to pay the maximum luxury tax. This is the only year that they can get the reset button pushed. That's the whole reason for Project 189, and that's why Hal Steinbrenner is hellbent on getting there.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I was thinking he had some knowledge of how the Baseball arbitration process worked. I guess not. My own knowledge is somewhat limited, unfortunately, so I'm generally choosing not to comment rather than comment in a halfbaked and uninformed way. I think it's clear that it'll see the "inside of a court" in the sense that a magistrate will rule on a preliminary injunction delaying any suspension for the time being (I'm not sure if it'll be done by briefs or if there will be appearances in court). My own view is the preliminary injunction will be granted.

The only thing I was unsure about is whether Rodriguez would have to try to exhaust his remedies through the arbitration process before a court could rule that there are contract-based (or antitrust-based) flaws in the process or if he can simply attack it collaterally right away. My instinct, because arbitration is heavily favored in federal courts, is that he has to try arbitration first.

 

[Timby]

Ordinarily, when it goes to court, the court would only be allowed to consider the original arbitration process itself, as opposed to rehearing the facts of the case (because it would be an attack on the arbitration), but Rodriguez is going scorched earth and will sue for a bunch of other shit like defamation and tortious interference to get around that.

As for the injunction, it would probably be granted. As I said earlier, the magistrate will have to decide whether Rodriguez faces irreparable harm, and has a substantial likelihood of success on the merits. I don't know about the merits, but it's very easy to make the argument that he faces irreparable harm from the suspension (since he has huge incentive clauses in his contract).

Honestly, I'm glad that Rodriguez is going scorched earth; aside from money, he has nothing to lose. And MLB has a lot to lose -- they could get enjoined from suspending him, obviously, but they did some really bad stuff here that Rodriguez now gets to air in public over the several next months to years. So as with all civil litigation, it's about creating leverage.

Federal court is interested in this (and this will end up in a courtroom) because it's a labor case where a powerful corporation conspired to damage the career, reputation and life of an employee (and there's a really uncomfortably close relationship between the Steinbrenners and Selig, which raises the question of collusion). The grounds that they've chosen for punishment are built on speculation, completely out of whack with what they gave to others for no reason aside from a personal vendetta and the illegally obtained evidence they claim to have that directly interfered with state and federal level criminal investigations.

Courts have been itching for an excuse to revoke MLB's antitrust exemption (and this is a really interesting case for that), and I don't get why MLB willing to damage its reputation, brand and public goodwill over a witch hunt.

 

[Yanks]

I won't make personal accusations, but it's clear you are both bias to A-Rod. Funny how EVERYONE but A-Rod took the punishment. Guess they ALL were just scared. They ALL had a case and .... whatever. Jesus, you both forget this is one of, if not THE strongest union in all of sports.

Give me one good reason a federal judge would accept something that went through arbitration that both parties agreed to abide by? One that historically sides with and is there FOR the players?

Guess you guys know best.

We'll see what happens.

I think you guys are more scared of the Yankees not having to pay his salary this year. Or do you want his broken down body in the line-up every day?

Oh, and Bonds and A-Rod have always been about themselves. Both have lied through their teeth, and I'm just sick of it. Braun is in that category as well. I also understand chain of custody and it's importance in the process. I served as a Master at Arms in the military for a few years.

MICHAEL WEINER: Weiner, the players' union's executive director, said Monday that the union agreed with A-Rod's decision to fight the suspension. Weiner also said the union will "defend his rights vigorously." But Weiner told Sirius XM Tuesday that he "recommended" that Rodriguez accept a suspension of a certain length. He did not specify the number publicly.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseb...genesis-case-against-alex-rodriguez-1.5868926

Why make that recommendation if A-Rod has a case? That sound to me like the evidence CLEARLY supports MLB's case.

-Text messages obtained by 60 MINUTES between him and Rodriguez indicate that at times they communicated daily about the substances the slugger took on his “protocol”

http://www.newsday.com/entertainmen...ls-of-mlb-doping-case-against-a-rod-1.6779713

I'll be watching 60 minutes...

If this makes a courtroom, it's only because A-Rod has gazillions of dollars.

 

[Timby]

I won't make personal accusations, but it's clear you are both bias to A-Rod.

I don't have a dog in the race, given that I'm a Cubs fan and really don't give two hoots about how the AL East shakes down. What I do have an issue with is MLB pissing all over the Joint Drug Agreement and the Basic Agreement, and employing illegal means of gathering evidence in a witch hunt.

Funny how EVERYONE but A-Rod took the punishment. Guess they ALL were just scared. They ALL had a case and .... whatever. Jesus, you both forget this is one of, if not THE strongest union in all of sports.

This really isn't true. MLB essentially broke the union during the 2002 collective bargaining process, and since then the MLBPA has gotten more and more toothless. The only more ineffective union in professional sports is the NBPA.

Give me one good reason a federal judge would accept something that went through arbitration that both parties agreed to abide by? One that historically sides with and is there FOR the players?

Because Rodriguez isn't appealing the arbitration; he's filing suit against Major League Baseball for defamation of character, tortious interference, and likely a whole bunch of other offenses, as well. Again, this is a case that has a bunch of far-reaching implications for labor law. A huge powerful corporation (with a really convenient antitrust exemption) conspired to damage the career, reputation and life of an employee, and did so employing illegally obtained "evidence," and in the process interfered with actual, real, legitimate investigations being performed by state and federal police. That is a huge problem. (And a crime.)

As much as we like to talk about how cheating in a sport is not the same as a criminal activity, obtaining illegal products, selling illegal products, having a business designed to sell such products under the guise of a legit health business, etc., is actually a matter of public consequence. MLB decided that instead of using whatever they had on Biogenesis and saying, "Hey, authorities! You might want to check this out and lock this guy away pronto," and handling their athletes under the parameters they already have, they used it as a chance to rake their own employees over the coals and use their own form of a justice system while butchering any chance the real police could do anything about the larger issue. That's beyond petty. It's dangerous.

And again, Rodriguez never failed an actual MLB drug test. The Joint Drug Agreement says that for a first positive test, he would sit for 50 games. So banning him for 162 games plus any potential postseason is effectively saying that the Joint Drug Agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I think you guys are more scared of the Yankees not having to pay his salary this year. Or do you want his broken down body in the line-up every day?

We've been through this conversation a half-dozen times; Rodriguez was the fourth-best hitter in the Yankees' lineup last year, so it's better for them if he plays. As for being "scared," no, I really don't give a shit, I'm just intensely amused by all the dumpster-diving bullshit they've done as part of Project 189.

Oh, and Bonds and A-Rod have always been about themselves. Both have lied through their teeth, and I'm just sick of it. Braun is in that category as well.

Some professional athletes are jerks, sky blue, water wet, etc.

Why make that recommendation if A-Rod has a case? That sound to me like the evidence CLEARLY supports MLB's case.

Because Michael Weiner was a spineless shitlord who sold out a large chunk of his constituents during the negotiations over the 2012 Basic Agreement.

I'll be watching 60 minutes...

Have fun watching an MLB-sanctioned hit piece.

If this makes a courtroom, it's only because A-Rod has gazillions of dollars.

It'll make a courtroom because contrary to what you might think, getting evidence illegally and smearing the shit out of your own employees is not generally seen as kosher by federal labor judges.

The sad thing is that "victory" here would be Rodriguez facing no consequences, where in a sane world we'd be talking about whether or not Bud Selig goes to prison. (Of course, a sane world would also not force unions to accept arbitration clauses in a CBA, which are anti-worker garbage.)

And if you think it's mere coincidence that giving Rodriguez a lengthy suspension which isn't justified by any clause in the Basic Agreement also allows the Yankees to save tens of millions of dollars on their payroll, I have some swampland in Florida I'd love to sell you.