Missing ships in the fleet.

[GalaxyClass1701]

So DS9 has always had the best biggest and badest fleet battles but there was one thing that bugged me.

You never saw and Intrepid class (only in the episode where Bashir goes to Romulas) or a [FONT=Calibri]Sovereign class ship in the fleet?[/FONT]

 

[Timo]

Or a couple of other well-known classes such as Constellation or Oberth.

Possibly all these ships were unsuited for war in some way or another - too old, too weak, too new and unreliable. Or simply built in such low numbers that their absence would be statistically dictated.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kai Winn]

i was more concerned about the swarms of galaxy-class ships. tng stated a couple of years earlier that there were only four of them in the whole star fleet, and we watched the loss of three onscreen.
voyager was believed to be lost in the badlands until shortly before the end of the dominion war, the project might have been postponed until they figured out what the problem with the ship was. of the sovereign class there were two ships only, one busy with the borg, the other one difficult to spot in a fleet of 1,000+ vessels.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

i was more concerned about the swarms of galaxy-class ships. tng stated a couple of years earlier that there were only four of them in the whole star fleet, and we watched the loss of three onscreen.
voyager was believed to be lost in the badlands until shortly before the end of the dominion war, the project might have been postponed until they figured out what the problem with the ship was. of the sovereign class there were two ships only, one busy with the borg, the other one difficult to spot in a fleet of 1,000+ vessels.

The Galaxy issue makes sense because by this time Galaxy was becoming the backbone of the fleet.

Also Nova class was missing.

 

[indolover]

I don't think Intrepid class vessels are tactically very sound. They're more scientific in base. At least this was the gist given in Voyager.

 

[Withers]

The reason the Sovereign class didn't show up was a production reason; they wanted/needed it specifically for the movies. The other reason being that Sisko was basically in charge of the war on the Federation side for all the important battles. Yeah, there was Admiral Ross, but in tandem it was the two of them calling the shots. If you suddenly put a ship newer, faster, and stronger than Defiant on screen one wants to focus on that ship more, ya know?

With the unique design of the Intrepid it's not unlikely that there just weren't that many of them and that due to the time it takes to construct them (since they're so different than other ships of the fleet) Starfleet simply didn't want to lose them in a battle since they weren't battleships anyway. (Voyager wasn't exactly an ass kicker.)

The technical data on 24th century Nova class ships (Not the Rhode Island variant but the class in service at the time) rule it out from seeing combat every bit as much as the Oberth class.

The Nova-class was designed as a science and scout vessel, intended for short-term planetary research and analysis. It is not typically suitable for combat operations. The Nova design has a maximum speed of warp 8 and approximately eighty crewmembers.

That's from memory alpha.

I think Starfleet used the ships that were tried and true for the bulk of the war. They knew they could count on Excelsior and Galaxy class ships and that Akira and Miranda class ships were good for support. We saw Defiant class ships and we know that a few other classes made appearances. With the exception of the Sovereign class there's a decent explanation in universe for why certain certain classes weren't present in large quantities (or at all.)

-Withers-​

 

[Herbert1]

There were multiple fleets, the Sovereign-class and the Intrepid-class starships could have been serving in other fleets and participating in other battles against the Dominion and its allies.

 

[Jono]

While DS9's final seasons were about the Dominion War we did see very little of it. We only saw what, 5 major battles in a conflict that had entire worlds conquered and dozens of battles. Of those battles for the most part we only see that happens in the immediate area of the Defiant (what was in visual range). Did those ships take part in the war, I don't think there would be any doubt that they did, we just didn't get to see it.

 

[Photon]

Why was Voyager carrying Tri-Cobalt Torpedoes?

What were they gonna do w/those in the Badlands, blowup the Badlands?

THAT is a plot hole the size of Beluga whale.

 

[Michael]

Why was Voyager carrying Tri-Cobalt Torpedoes?

What were they gonna do w/those in the Badlands, blowup the Badlands?

THAT is a plot hole the size of Beluga whale.

How's that even a small plothole?

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Ambassador Class ships (Enterprise C) weren't used. I can't remember why, IIRC there was a reason. Maybe.

 

[gianderosa1990]

I don't think Intrepid class vessels are tactically very sound. They're more scientific in base. At least this was the gist given in Voyager.

Yes the Intrepid class is more of a Science vessel but Voyager showed us that this class of ship can withstand a beating, hold its own against a few vessels, out maneuver most Alpha quadrant vessels anyways.

I do think an intrepid class vessel can take on at least three or four Jem'hadar bug ships and its shields can adapt to most weapons.

 

[Finn]

Ambassador Class ships (Enterprise C) weren't used. I can't remember why, IIRC there was a reason. Maybe.

A while ago, a poster here mentioned that they broke the model for the Ambassador Class starship not long after TNG's Yesterday's Enterprise before they had the chance to do good shots of it from various viewpoints.

 

[Deks]

I don't think Intrepid class vessels are tactically very sound. They're more scientific in base. At least this was the gist given in Voyager.

Yes the Intrepid class is more of a Science vessel but Voyager showed us that this class of ship can withstand a beating, hold its own against a few vessels, out maneuver most Alpha quadrant vessels anyways.

I do think an intrepid class vessel can take on at least three or four Jem'hadar bug ships and its shields can adapt to most weapons.

Seconded.
Furthermore, off-screen indications indicated the Intrepid class is essentially a downsized Galaxy class.

And there were several on-screen indications to support the premise the ship was built for combat.

It's possible the Intrepid class was not built in large numbers because the Dominion war started just a bit less than 3 years after Voyager was thrown in the D.Q., and that particular class of ship was fairly new, so it stands to reason SF will likely want to phase out an older design and substitute it with the Intrepid in a specific time-frame.

TNG established in it's beginnings that there were already several Galaxy class ship in service, and SF essentially had about a decade until the start of Dominion War to construct them in large quantities (which is one of the reasons I doubt any of the Galaxy class ships we saw in battles had half-finished interiors to begin with ... and I also think people are seriously underestimating Starfleet's construction abilities and the technology used in the entire process).

Voyager proved itself in battle on more than one occasion ... and furthermore, we only observed the Intrepid class performance through that ship alone.
A ship that was stranded in the D.Q. (a transition which damaged the ship and ended up suffering from various power issues for the first season or two).

Ultimately speaking, taking into consideration what Voyager went through and managed to emerge victorious (often while not operating at peak efficiency), I'd say SF would be idiotic not to use them on a mass scale, ranging from exploration to deep space tactical assignments.

 

[Dac]

Galaxy Class: From what I remember from extended sources, a second production run just prior to the dominion war effectively tripled the number of Galaxy classes that were in service.

Intrepid Class: Its reasonable to assume that this was a state of the art, highly advanced ship that was produced in far smaller numbers compared to other ships of its size, and as such, they were left in exploration duties or inner system defense.

As for the argument that they were superships as evidenced by Voyager, all I can say is that Voyager had the batman element to it. Give them a week and they could destroy the universe with that ship, but whenever it was thrust into a surprise attack, Voyager always took a hell of a beating. Add to the fact that the dominion liked to cross the border willy nilly and attack Federation ships on patrol, and an intrepid class wouldnt have been much use. Starfleet's strategy of bringing old ships out of mothballs and placing them into service along the front lines probably made sense in the long run - why waste all your shiny new toys when you know theres a 90% they wont make it? An older ship did the same job as a newer one did, just with less of a risk factor to it (except to the crew).

Nova Class: Like it was mentioned above, this was a small scientific survey vessel that wouldn't serve much use on the front lines. Probably was used for supply runs to established bases in and around the front lines.

Oberth Class: Probably out of service by now.

Sovereign: The Enterprise was kept mostly away from the front lines, although other ships in the class were unaccounted for. My guess would be they were protecting Earth or other systems closer to the heart of the federation.

 

[James Wright]

Weren't the Intrepid class ships intended to replace the Excelsior class starships which had been in service for more then a century?

James

 

[nx1701g]

The honest reason why the Sovereign and Intrepid Class ships were not seen in the battles (this is from the Companion and an interview with the producers that is available online, I just don't have the link anymore):

Paramount Pictures told them they weren't allowed to use them. Paramount had defined several ship designs as "Hero Ships" and they were reserved for use on the specific shows that they were designed for only. This started with Roddenberry in TNG's first season during the episode "The Battle". Originally the Stargazer was going to be a Constitution Class ship but, because there were fears people would confuse the ship with the then Enterprise-A, Roddenberry and Paramount nixed the idea to prevent confusion among the fans (and the Constellation Class was born). This is also why we never see a Constitution Class ship on TNG (other than as an unidentified broken hulk in BOBWP2) because there were fears that it would be assumed that it was the Enterprise.

When DS9 began the Dominion War storylines it came up about having the Enterprise and Intrepid Class ships in some background scenes, but the producers nixed the idea because of this rule under the impression that people would automatically assume that Picard & Co were present (in the case of a Sovereign) and wonder why they weren't leading the fight from the Federation Flagship. The same was true of Voyager and they were worried there would be confusion about how Voyager was there. I remember reading that the producers thought it was a big deal they got approval to use the Intrepid model for the Bellereophon in Season Seven.

As for why we never saw Ambassador Class, Constellation Class, Norway Class, and Oberth Class ships in the war: that was because of CGI issues. There was never a CGI model built for the Ambassador, Constellation, or the Oberth Class ships and the Norway's model was lost due to a computer crash. Because they didn't want to waste money they never built them. Remember too that there were no Nebula Class ships in early battles either because of money issues.

So there are the real world reasons. In character maybe they were just in different fleets.

 

[Finn]

Weren't the Intrepid class ships intended to replace the Excelsior class starships which had been in service for more then a century?

James

No. The Ambassadors and the Galaxies were. Notice how similiar they are to Escelsiors....

 

[Myasishchev]

The honest reason why the Sovereign and Intrepid Class ships were not seen in the battles (this is from the Companion and an interview with the producers that is available online, I just don't have the link anymore):

Paramount Pictures told them they weren't allowed to use them. Paramount had defined several ship designs as "Hero Ships" and they were reserved for use on the specific shows that they were designed for only. This started with Roddenberry in TNG's first season during the episode "The Battle". Originally the Stargazer was going to be a Constitution Class ship but, because there were fears people would confuse the ship with the then Enterprise-A, Roddenberry and Paramount nixed the idea to prevent confusion among the fans (and the Constellation Class was born). This is also why we never see a Constitution Class ship on TNG (other than as an unidentified broken hulk in BOBWP2) because there were fears that it would be assumed that it was the Enterprise.

When DS9 began the Dominion War storylines it came up about having the Enterprise and Intrepid Class ships in some background scenes, but the producers nixed the idea because of this rule under the impression that people would automatically assume that Picard & Co were present (in the case of a Sovereign) and wonder why they weren't leading the fight from the Federation Flagship. The same was true of Voyager and they were worried there would be confusion about how Voyager was there. I remember reading that the producers thought it was a big deal they got approval to use the Intrepid model for the Bellereophon in Season Seven.

As for why we never saw Ambassador Class, Constellation Class, Norway Class, and Oberth Class ships in the war: that was because of CGI issues. There was never a CGI model built for the Ambassador, Constellation, or the Oberth Class ships and the Norway's model was lost due to a computer crash. Because they didn't want to waste money they never built them. Remember too that there were no Nebula Class ships in early battles either because of money issues.

So there are the real world reasons. In character maybe they were just in different fleets.

In other words, the producers believed the viewers were utter and complete human scum. That's pretty unpleasant.

"We can't use a Mustang! People will wonder why Steve McQueen isn't in this picture!"

On the other hand, if the producers wanted to preserve the intangible cachet of their hero ships, that's slightly more understandable, although personally I think it's nearly as stupid. I'm still wondering why Defiants weren't just omnipresent during the Dominion War. But at least they got to use and abuse a lot of Galaxies.

 

[Kai Winn]

i was more concerned about the swarms of galaxy-class ships. tng stated a couple of years earlier that there were only four of them in the whole star fleet, and we watched the loss of three onscreen.
voyager was believed to be lost in the badlands until shortly before the end of the dominion war, the project might have been postponed until they figured out what the problem with the ship was. of the sovereign class there were two ships only, one busy with the borg, the other one difficult to spot in a fleet of 1,000+ vessels.

The Galaxy issue makes sense because by this time Galaxy was becoming the backbone of the fleet.

no wonder they can't win a war w/o assistance of the romulans and klingons if they depend on those big but underpowered and under-armed pots. might have build more defiants and prometheuses instead, smaller but deliver more punch.