G
Garrovick
Guest
Wishful Thinking? I have Ubuntu (arguably the most popular) only on my main desktop. Linux has a long way to go in the user friendly category. Just spend some quality time in the Ubuntu forums.
Microsoft to release Windows 7 in Europe without IE8
- Thread starter Candlelight
- Start date
Wishful Thinking? I have Ubuntu (arguably the most popular) only on my main desktop. Linux has a long way to go in the user friendly category. Just spend some quality time in the Ubuntu forums.
Now that's wishful thinking.
Not that Microsoft won't build standards-compliant programs. But they'll throw their own little extras in on top of the standards as they always do, which in its way is just as bad.
I can't remember the article exactly (was on slashdot a little while back) but iirc the possiblity was using Mozilla as a base but I don't know how much of a chase that would give them to bastardise things.
I have so many issues with the way the Eu went after Microsoft, you can't have one rule for Microsoft and another for Apple, and then you have all the smart mobiles with their built in Browsers that are a lot harder if not downright impossible to change.
If IE has to go then why is Safari Exempt? because Apple doesn't shift as many copies of Leopard as Microsoft does it's OS?
I was going to say Almost every pair of trousers I have comes with a YKK zip, and that I think it's about time the EU goes after them, but shockingly it already has lol.
I wonder how many European vs Non European companies with a massive market share have been hit by the EU?
If IE has to go then why is Safari Exempt? because Apple doesn't shift as many copies of Leopard as Microsoft does it's OS?
I was going to say Almost every pair of trousers I have comes with a YKK zip, and that I think it's about time the EU goes after them, but shockingly it already has lol.
I wonder how many European vs Non European companies with a massive market share have been hit by the EU?
Apple didn't introduce their web browser in order to close out competition. That was one of Microsoft's aims by a) intitially introducing IE after they saw the growth of Mozilla and b) attempted to further increase their dominance by using their browser to push proprietory extensions tied to Microsoft Products.
A
Amaris
Guest
Maybe it will be MacOS. Linux has a steeper learning curve than MacOS, and MacOS is very user friendly and requires no use of it's terminal interface.
J.
^^--Maybe it will get Apple fans to shut up if they finally have their boy win somewhere (guess iPod and iPhone success is not enough).
OS area could use some real competition. I'm just not sure Apple is the best alternative if it needs governments to intervene on its behalf. It sure as hell is no Toyota...
OS area could use some real competition. I'm just not sure Apple is the best alternative if it needs governments to intervene on its behalf. It sure as hell is no Toyota...
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Amaris
Guest
Which isn't the case. The issues with Microsoft and it's monopolistc behavior go back at least 10 years. Lookup DoJ vs Microsoft at some point and I'm sure you'll find that Apple weren't the only one's raising issues (if they even had a role to play in the anti-competative practices investigations).
And if you think that only Microsoft gets hit with this sort of thing perhaps you should have a chat with Intel.
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Amaris
Guest
^ Not only that, but I wonder if he realizes Apple is partly owned by Microsoft, and Microsoft is partly owned by Apple.
J.
J.
I don't believe that's the case now. I read mention about it recently (might of been in here) that Microsoft actually divested it's self of the Apple shares sometime back and turned a nice little profit on them.
Hadn't heard about Apple owning Microsoft shares but Apple does pay some of the development costs for Office for OS X (though one sometimes wonders if Apple are getting shafted there - especially when Microsoft does things like refuse to add the ability to read .pst files to Entourage).
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Amaris
Guest
The way I see it at the end of the day is this, Microsoft make Windows, Microsoft owns windows and have every right IMO to decide what comes with windows.
The End user has every right not to buy windows, and here is another issue I have.
When people go to buy a computer it 99.9% of the time comes loaded with windows, their is little/no choice in most shops over the OS.
That the EU should act upon IMO, not over Microsoft daring to put a Microsoft browser on a Microsoft Product, thats just stupid IMO.
What next, telling ford and co to start fitting Standard size stereo's to their cars? or none at all.
And you completely miss the point of the issue and your comparison to cars is crap and irrelevant.
I suggest you go do some actual reading on the matter and come back to us when you're better informed.
Some claim IE is only popular because Microsoft uses its "market share" to give it’s products an edge. Sometimes they say it’s because people are too ignorant to try other browsers. Yet look how popular "downloading" music is? Does windows come with Limewire, Kazzah, or the various torrent programs preinstalled?
If Apple or who ever wants a piece of Microsoft’s pie, they don’t need governments to step in on their behalf. They just have to make a better product. If I am going to switch, there better be a better reason than just a bunch of whiners on the net (who for all I know are bought) complaining about Microsoft being to big or unfair to the small guy or whatever.
People like me are aware of Firefox and other browsers. I have recently started using Firefox more. Not because some random net person told me it is better. I had installed windows 7 on my PC and some sites that I visit frequently don’t work so well with IE 8. Firefox works much better compared to IE8 on these websites. So I didn’t need anyone to preach to me how the other programs are so much "better." I figured it out for my self in every day use so I made the change. That’s all there is too it, people will eventually go for what works better for them.
If Apple or who ever wants a piece of Microsoft’s pie, they don’t need governments to step in on their behalf. They just have to make a better product. If I am going to switch, there better be a better reason than just a bunch of whiners on the net (who for all I know are bought) complaining about Microsoft being to big or unfair to the small guy or whatever.
People like me are aware of Firefox and other browsers. I have recently started using Firefox more. Not because some random net person told me it is better. I had installed windows 7 on my PC and some sites that I visit frequently don’t work so well with IE 8. Firefox works much better compared to IE8 on these websites. So I didn’t need anyone to preach to me how the other programs are so much "better." I figured it out for my self in every day use so I made the change. That’s all there is too it, people will eventually go for what works better for them.
But it's not just IE. as I mentioned up thread Microsoft had a version of Vista that didn't include Movie Maker and Movie Player.
IE8 causes problems because it's not properly compatible with sites written to suit the older versions of the browser.
Microsoft tried to leverage it's own browser extension to lock people in it's platforms both server and client side. This resulted in the sites used features that were microsoft exclusive which in turn lead to flawed designs in the site.
Along comes IE8 breaks everything written for the older browsers. Now if Microsoft had written it's browsers to be more Acid compliant then a) a lot of sites on the net would work much better and b) IE8 coming along wouldn't of screwed up things so badly.
That's fine for you because you know how to use a computer, I'd say that roughly 50% of the people who have computers don't have a clue how to use them beyond the most basic functions. I used to deal with these people when I worked in software support and when I'd mention Firefox to most people they either didn't know what I was talking about or they heard of it but had no clue what it was. These are the people who MS has a stranglehold on.
Personally, I have no problem with that because if MS didn't include IE in Windows then those people wouldn't have a clue about how to get on the internet in the first place. We need people like that because they're the ones who tend to click on the ads that people like me tend to avoid, so they're financing all my time-wasting. If MS stopped shipping IE with Windows then the internet wouldn't be profitable anymore and it would die a quick death.
Not all - hardware vendors would be free to supply IE or Firefox or Opera or Chrome or Safari when they build the systems.
One of the things that specifically landed Microsoft in the shit was it's prohibition through contract to OEMS manufactuers prohibiting any software alternatives to IE and media player being pre-loaded on the hardware.
So if Dell wanted to ship Firefox with it's hardware it would be prevented from doing so by it's OEM contract with Microsoft.
The excuse of a lack of knowledge doesn't fly because people by their computers with the software preloaded so unless you're building a system from components by yourself then it's going to come with software preloaded.
While not exactly the solution most people were hoping for, it's still good. Internet Explorer, even IE8, is a horrible browser, especially from a webdesigner's perspective. Modern technologies (like SVG, Canvas, SMIL, browser-based data storage, CSS3 + CSS3 web fonts, inline OGG audio/video and so on) simply don't work. At all. Not even one tiny part of them. This makes options rather limited for webdesigners.
Fortunately, it's becoming more and more accepted to offer an alternate browsing experience for Internet Explorer users, with all advanced graphics, navigation, animation, content and songs/videos taken out. Websides don't have to be exactly the same across browsers anymore. And why would they? Why limit yourself?
The only problem is that there are still people out there who don't realize using Internet Explorer is hugely degrading their internet experiences. That the sites they see have functionality cut out, or a dumbed-down presentation because Internet Explorer doesn't support almost any modern technology. They never know what they're missing.
Then again, there are all those people who are willfully using Internet Explorer even though they know it's broken and outdated. These are the same people who send mails to website administrators about why they don't have these advanced features and their friends, who use modern browsers, do -- and then presume to arrogantly claim that it should be implemented as fast as possible since it's so easy -- even though they don't have any notion of how those things work whatsoever.
Back on topic: I'm biased; I know how the browsers operate 'under the hood'. So, it's not exactly a surprise that I think any method of removing IE from Windows is fair game. However, I do like to see some sort of option when first booting. Perhaps from the DVD, with all modern browser (Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera etc.) setups and a clear and concise explanation on the positive and negative points of each browser, so the user can make an informed choice. Of course, being Microsoft, they'd add IE to the list. But there should be a big red warning -- at the very least -- about how it doesn't keep up with the competition.
Knowing Microsoft, they'd probably do the exact opposite thing: Put all setups on the desktop, make sure that each setup gives a big fat red warning "Are you SURE you want to install this program?" except for Internet Explorer, which -- of course -- will give no warning at all. Sigh.
Fortunately, it's becoming more and more accepted to offer an alternate browsing experience for Internet Explorer users, with all advanced graphics, navigation, animation, content and songs/videos taken out. Websides don't have to be exactly the same across browsers anymore. And why would they? Why limit yourself?
The only problem is that there are still people out there who don't realize using Internet Explorer is hugely degrading their internet experiences. That the sites they see have functionality cut out, or a dumbed-down presentation because Internet Explorer doesn't support almost any modern technology. They never know what they're missing.
Then again, there are all those people who are willfully using Internet Explorer even though they know it's broken and outdated. These are the same people who send mails to website administrators about why they don't have these advanced features and their friends, who use modern browsers, do -- and then presume to arrogantly claim that it should be implemented as fast as possible since it's so easy -- even though they don't have any notion of how those things work whatsoever.
Back on topic: I'm biased; I know how the browsers operate 'under the hood'. So, it's not exactly a surprise that I think any method of removing IE from Windows is fair game. However, I do like to see some sort of option when first booting. Perhaps from the DVD, with all modern browser (Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera etc.) setups and a clear and concise explanation on the positive and negative points of each browser, so the user can make an informed choice. Of course, being Microsoft, they'd add IE to the list. But there should be a big red warning -- at the very least -- about how it doesn't keep up with the competition.
Knowing Microsoft, they'd probably do the exact opposite thing: Put all setups on the desktop, make sure that each setup gives a big fat red warning "Are you SURE you want to install this program?" except for Internet Explorer, which -- of course -- will give no warning at all. Sigh.
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