Michael Chabon vs Trekkies
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
Non canon things explain movie contradictions all the time. A non canon work explained how Kenobi said the Republic stood for a thousand generations and Palpatine said it stood for 1,000 years in Star Wars. Canon or not, fans use them to explain what canon itself doesn't.
I'll explain Spock likely meant the "long term" salvation of Romulus and not the "exact words" of "I saved the planet even though it froze in a few months".
Literally the entire premise of the Picard show is that there just aren't the ships to evacuate Romulus. Yes, a black hole would have spared other star systems the radiation that eventually came their way at light speed, but there weren't enough ships even to evacuate Romulus itself. Otherwise Romulus would have just evacuated and said to the rest of their empire "too bad". Nero specifically says he's from Romulus.
The "short term" solution you guys are proposing does not change this situation at all. We have no proof Spock has a magical fleet built up in less than a month that the month (or whatever little time) he buys freezing Romulus would make any difference.
No fleet is ever mentioned by anyone in the Picard show. We have no reason to think this fleet exists or ever did. Clancy's speech to Picard all but confirms one never materialized. Occam's razor would suggest Spock intended a long term solution for Romulus, not a short term one.
Thus the magical supernova makes more sense to Spock's plan, rather than a month of freezing death without a fleet equating to a "promise to save your planet". I know Spock's an exact words kind of guy, but we're talking about him using it as a cruel joke on an entire planetary populace. What you are suggesting is worse than bad science (which is just another day in star trek honestly), but a complete destruction of Spock's core character built up over 50 years. I think even Nimoy (bless him, I'm just speculating but I think it's a fair guess) would be shocked if they retconned Spock's character that way.
I think the best case scenario is for the Picard show never to detail it anymore and just let Star Trek Online's explanation stand. We'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out, but if they don't detail it anymore in season 1 and the writers are now aware of the contradiction, it should be fine.
STO will be running long after the show's finished anyway.
Um, why? Assuming that Romulan worlds apart from Romulus would not carry some political weight, at least, is an assumption.
It actually does. Even if (say) ten million people are evacuated before Romulus freezes, and even if nothing can be done to shelter the remainder as might well be possible given 24th century technology, that is still ten million people alive who would otherwise have died.
Have you been watching "Children of Mars" and Picard?
No Federation fleet, this is true. She said nothing about the Romulans' continued efforts.
Not really. Why do you assume that the red matter might not also have been used to somehow restore balance to the star of Romulus?
"Destruction," to try to save as many lives as possible in adverse circumstances?
Anyway, there is no retconning needed. What we see in Picard matches up with what we saw in 2009's Star Trek. STO has its own explanation, just as the prior novelverse might have had it gotten to the point, but those explorations are of secondary importance.
We want to just accept that it's a "broad strokes" reference to the same event, and try not to think too hard about the details.
Kor
Literally everything you wrote is fan theories not based on even a non-canon licensed work. My theories are taken from licensed works like Star Trek Online. Even if they aren't canon, they carry more weight, I think, than ideas never published outside of a fan's imagination.
As I said, you're right we don't need a retcon and Spock's character can be tossed aside as a crummy exact words Vulcan giving an entire planet false hope (he outright said "save their planet"). If one cares at all about the character of Spock, a retcon is needed.
Federation was supposed to save 900 million Romulans, yet billions Romulans are mentioned in a later episode. Of course Romulans have their own fleet and have been evaluating too. Black Hole would buy them more time so they could rescue those last 900 million too. Not to mention all the nearby colonies that would not be barbecued in couple of years in the black hole scenario.
Actually, they carry exactly the same amount of weight: none whatsoever.
Have you read The Last Best Hope? That licensed work, written to fit with Picard, describes the Romulans' efforts at length. It just happens that, due to the structural failings of the Romulan state among other factors, that was not enough.
Star Trek Online was created on the basis of a history that is not Picard's. Most importantly for our purposes, Romulan civilization had been divided for years into two rival states, and the Star Empire had only a very short period of warning before the star Hobus exploded. Its backstory just does not mention what we see in Picard. Expecting that two different events in different circumstances must have the same backstory may be an expectation, but is it a wise one?
The Last Best Hope (and the Countdown comics, too) are authorized publications. McCormack's novel is even a hardcover with a lovely dustjacket.
And again these are fan theories that aren't supported onscreen at all. And along with mucking up the character of Spock, we're now throwing Picard's guilt into question too. If the Romulans had a fleet that realistically could have evacuated Romulus given just 1 more month, Picard wouldn't need to feel guilty. Clancy would have told him that even.
Last Best Hope just came out yesterday. I did a text search for Spock, and not a single result had anything to do with the red matter plan, which is what we're all here discussing. Only Star Trek Online provides that (and Countdown but Countdown is definitely non-headcanon even while STO is rapidly changing their game to fit Picard, see Seven of Nine in her new look, removal of Hugh, etc.)
I see no reason why it should be. It had fairly broad strokes of the event, with the small caveat that Spock was highly emotional during his telling to nuKirk.
@rfmcdpei @Longinus @SolarisOne
I will concede that a Romulan sun in Romulus system supernova works if you, again, want to turn Spock into an exact-words jerkish Vulcan. Literally against everything he ever was his entire century and a half of life.
If you're going to use exact science (in a franchise that already frequently uses bad science) as justification to destroy a character, I think it misses the whole point of Star Trek to be honest. And I say this is as a physics major who worked in national labs myself.
Spock would in no way promise to save a planet if he couldn't realistically save it. Period. He's just not that kind of guy. Fine print doesn't count he's not a fine print "gotcha" guy (i.e. I promised to save the planet, I never said what temperature it would be etc.).
I will concede that a Romulan sun in Romulus system supernova works if you, again, want to turn Spock into an exact-words jerkish Vulcan. Literally against everything he ever was his entire century and a half of life.
If you're going to use exact science (in a franchise that already frequently uses bad science) as justification to destroy a character, I think it misses the whole point of Star Trek to be honest. And I say this is as a physics major who worked in national labs myself.
Spock would in no way promise to save a planet if he couldn't realistically save it. Period. He's just not that kind of guy. Fine print doesn't count he's not a fine print "gotcha" guy (i.e. I promised to save the planet, I never said what temperature it would be etc.).
It is not a fan theory that there was more than 900 million Romulans on Romulus and it is not a fan theory that Romulans have a sizeable fleet. It is also not a fan theory that Trek universe has far better energy generation methods than we do now and they have technology that can control planetary conditions. Thus based on these canon facts it can be logically concluded that a sunless Romulus could have held out for a while, and that the Romulan fleet could have been able to save at least some of the remaining population.
Frankly. you are irrationally attached to some nonsense from an mediocre video game. STO is shock full of completely ludicrous bollocks that would seem laughably stupid even to J.J. Abrams. It works for a basis of a computer game but it is not anything that should be taken seriously as actual storytelling.
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Have you read my posts at all? Spock promised to save the planet, not half of it or a quarter of it. I'm attached to the character of Spock. Read what I think is basically all I have to say on the topic below.
I would note that I never said the Romulans had a fleet capable of that. Do not put words in my mouth, please. I spoke only of giving some number of people on Romulus a chance they otherwise would have lacked.
More, why would it not be plausible that Picard might hold himself responsible for not achieving what he set out to do for no fault of his own?
Spock has always been capable of ruthless moral calculus. Remember "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one"?
As for The Last Best Hope, it is true that Spock says nothing of his red matter plan in his one exchange with Picard. It is, also, quite true that it shows the Romulans being actively involved in moving very large numbers of people from worlds to be affected. They just are not capable of moving enough.
As for STO, I would simply say that if you are trying to use a licensed media operating with a very different backstory to describe the latest canon, you are bound o be disappointed. The two timelines are very different, and may describe entirely separate events. It is an error somewhat like trying to fit TNG in the late 1980s into the universe of FASA and the then-contemporary novels.
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