Michael Burnham and the Klingon War

[eschaton]

Personally, I don't think being a Trek fan should preclude you from writing for the show. But neither should being a fan facilitate it. The bar should be whether you're a good writer. If so, you should be able to set aside your fannishness.

Indeed. David Gerrold is of course the original example of a fan who ended up writing for the series. Ronald D. Moore is the strongest example from TNG era. I'm not sure how many other of the writers of this era were fans, because online bios aren't detailed in every case, but considering Trek continued to take unsolicited scripts in this era, I'm guessing many of them were to some degree.

 

[eschaton]

Is it more Trek referential than Enterprise was? I haven’t sat and watched ENT for a while but I don’t remember the same kind of random references in ENT as what disco throws out. Mintaka iii being the worst offender. I mean, let’s ignore the fact that the tng episode featuring Mintaka iii is one of the best ones, there was no reason for them to bring it up on DSC. Why would the empire need to subdue/murder all the Mintakans? Were they a threat to the empire? The planet didn’t seem to have any strategic value or natural resources. So why did Georgiou and Killy need to kill a planet of Proto Vulcans? Or have I missed the point of a pointless name drop that was only on DSC to fool me into thinking the people what wrote it knows what Star Trek is?

Obviously ENT had lots of episodes which could be considered fankwank to various levels. This included essentially all of Season 4, but also arguably bringing in the Borg, Ferengi, Klingons, etc. It's difficult here to determine what's fanwank and what's not, because one could argue that any reference to future elements of Trek - even if plot integral - is fanwanky to some extent. For example, is that horrible Risa episode fanwank or not?

I agree ENT didn't do what DIS seems to like doing, and throw in non-plot critical "Easter eggs" for the hardcore fans. There were a few of those of course. Phlox had a tribble, and the Cardassians were once mentioned in an offhanded manner.

 

[gblews]

I watched the show; I remember the sequence of events. What I'm saying is that it not a thematically, ethically, or psychologically coherent sequence of events.

In particular, this part...

...just doesn't work for me.

Well good, we're no longer arguing about whether or not she had an arc, which is what your previous post stated. That you didn't like her arc isn't a surprise, but at least we're making some progress.

 

[gblews]

What amuses me about Michael is even in the last episode she threatened mutiny again!

But this time, for the right reasons.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Obviously ENT had lots of episodes which could be considered fankwank to various levels. This included essentially all of Season 4, but also arguably bringing in the Borg, Ferengi, Klingons, etc. It's difficult here to determine what's fanwank and what's not, because one could argue that any reference to future elements of Trek - even if plot integral - is fanwanky to some extent. For example, is that horrible Risa episode fanwank or not?

I agree ENT didn't do what DIS seems to like doing, and throw in non-plot critical "Easter eggs" for the hardcore fans. There were a few of those of course. Phlox had a tribble, and the Cardassians were once mentioned in an offhanded manner.

Oh definitely.

I didn’t mind the Borg one I thought that one was clever. The ferengi one was unnecessary- in spite of how much I love the (DS9) ferengi. And I can take or leave the Klingons - although I liked the augment virus story (don’t judge me too harshly!). And yeh Risa was also not required.

But... in each case those species and planets were integral to the stories. In DSC they seem to be trolling memory alpha for random crap to jam in like it’s a prequel-era lightsaber battle.

And as for phlox’s tribble I did think it was hilarious that he fed it to that lil critter in sickbay haha! And I’d forgotten about the cardassian reference. That wasn’t a good episode of season 4 - I’ve forgotten in for being bland I think!

DSC needs to do some *actual* prequel stuff so the references are relevant to the stories.

What’s Kodos the executioner up to in the DSC era? Let’s see Gorkon. Or worf’s grandad from TUC - make Michael Dorn happy! Or they could go to one of the many many parallel earths they had in TOS where ships visited around ten years before the Enterprise.

Better yet, they could scrap all of the above and do their own freaking thing! XD

 

[fireproof78]

Better yet, they could scrap all of the above and do their own freaking thing! XD

Please!

 

[Refuge]

But this time, for the right reasons.

She did rather learn nothing.

 

[gblews]

She did rather learn nothing.

We disagree.

BTW, Burnham stopping Starfleet from committing genocide by being willing to commit another mutiny is also ironic, and I do love irony.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

She did rather learn nothing.

I think from Michael’s point of view, she has learned all that there is to learn. Her role in the universe now is to lecture others on their own culture (Saru), tell people in a relationship that she can “handle” their partners better (Culber), and to aggressively “set the record straight” when she comes across someone who is more intelligent and better informed than she is (Stamets).

Michael’s journey in season 1 is complete. She was vindicated. The lesson we can learn from her is to stick to your convictions even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and eventually everything will come up Burnham.

Star Trek tends to represent elements of real life (or at least it did back in the day). I wonder what kind of modern-day person Burnham is meant to represent? She’s young, she’s entitled, and she was living with her parents (Sarek and Amanda) when she first came aboard the shenzhou.

Is Michael Burnham a millennial?

(I ask that question in as non-inflammatory way as possible by the way - I wonder if the 2013 Time magazine representation of the stereotypical “millennial” is what inspired Michael Burnham?)

 

[Refuge]

I think from Michael’s point of view, she has learned all that there is to learn. Her role in the universe now is to lecture others on their own culture (Saru), tell people in a relationship that she can “handle” their partners better (Culber), and to aggressively “set the record straight” when she comes across someone who is more intelligent and better informed than she is (Stamets).

Michael’s journey in season 1 is complete. She was vindicated. The lesson we can learn from her is to stick to your convictions even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and eventually everything will come up Burnham.

Star Trek tends to represent elements of real life (or at least it did back in the day). I wonder what kind of modern-day person Burnham is meant to represent? She’s young, she’s entitled, and she was living with her parents (Sarek and Amanda) when she first came aboard the shenzhou.

Is Michael Burnham a millennial?

(I ask that question in as non-inflammatory way as possible by the way - I wonder if the 2013 Time magazine representation of the stereotypical “millennial” is what inspired Michael Burnham?)

Interesting question, one I hadn't thought of other than in feeling there is context of some form of representation in all character, but in Star Trek that has been its foundation. Michael is representative of a woman, a thirty-something female humanoid brought up in family where she was adopted, her parents sharing Vulcan and human heritage. She's disciplined, intelligent and schooled in matters of science and combat, and she's kind of fucking boring.

She to me is self-involved to a painful level that is almost sociopathic. Me me Me me ME ME. That is her filter. From her dreary voice-overs to her sad emoji expressions, she is so introspective that I do think she sees the world revolving around her. All those multi-universes just satellites to the brightest star in all creation - Michael Burnham. She is written that way...

I'm not sure she made much advancement in this arc. Just because her threat of mutiny in the final episode had the desired result does not justify it. Does not show growth. All we got to see was that the first time she did it she got a redundant prison sentence (insert rolling eyes and mockery here). The second time she gets a bloody medal (insert rolling eyes and mockery again). Michael IS entitled and she is representative of that. She knows more than anyone else. She's can kick arse better than anyone else. Better scientist than anyone else. Holds the record of going on all the away missions. Every older character wants to be her parent, lol. She does no wrong even when she does wrong.

Everything will come up Burnahm! That's funny, Groppler.

 

[BillJ]

Her role in the universe now is to lecture others on their own culture (Saru)...

Lifted straight from the 24th century!

 

[eschaton]

The ferengi one was unnecessary- in spite of how much I love the (DS9) ferengi.

As an aside, having recently rewatched all of Trek, it's stunning to me that even though DS9 pretty much fixed the Ferengi on day one of its run, the last season of TNG, VOY, and ENT still had no real idea what to do with them.

DSC needs to do some *actual* prequel stuff so the references are relevant to the stories.

What’s Kodos the executioner up to in the DSC era? Let’s see Gorkon. Or worf’s grandad from TUC - make Michael Dorn happy! Or they could go to one of the many many parallel earths they had in TOS where ships visited around ten years before the Enterprise.

Not much is canonically established for 2257/2258. We know Kirk graduates from Starfleet, and the USS Farragut loses 200 crewmembers to the dikironium cloud creature. Kodos begins his undercover life as part of a traveling Shakespeare troupe. And Robert Wesley's daughter is born. That's about it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think from Michael’s point of view, she has learned all that there is to learn.

So, she's the V'ger of DISCO?

 

[Mudd]

As an aside, having recently rewatched all of Trek, it's stunning to me that even though DS9 pretty much fixed the Ferengi on day one of its run, the last season of TNG, VOY, and ENT still had no real idea what to do with them.

Because DS9 didn't really do that.

What they did was develop a small group, a family, giving them depth and personalities and foibles as people. Quark and those close to him were about the best thing DS9 did. That having been said, when other Ferengi were brought on to the show they still tended to be comic, or comically threatening, foils who made Quark and Nog and Rom look even better by comparison. Some of the performances were first rate. But at the end of DS9 as a people the Ferengi had been made no less ridiculous, their fascination with profit having become even more exaggerating for humorous effect when we learned that they sold bits of dead people as collector's items or Wally Shawn came on and played the Grand Nagus as something between a wily old coot and a buffoon and so forth.

Almost all of the "Rules of Acquistion" were coined and "quoted" as jokes of one kind or another.

Look at the Ferengi episodes taken as a group - they're some of my favorites, but you won't have any trouble finding Niners around here who hate them.

Writers for the other shows had the same Ferengi they'd always had, just with a lot of detail scribbled in. What they didn't have were Shimerman or Grodenchik or Eisenberg playing characters who would be part of the show week after week and treated in the same way that other regulars were.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Interesting question, one I hadn't thought of other than in feeling there is context of some form of representation in all character, but in Star Trek that has been its foundation. Michael is representative of a woman, a thirty-something female humanoid brought up in family where she was adopted, her parents sharing Vulcan and human heritage. She's disciplined, intelligent and schooled in matters of science and combat, and she's kind of fucking boring.

She to me is self-involved to a painful level that is almost sociopathic. Me me Me me ME ME. That is her filter. From her dreary voice-overs to her sad emoji expressions, she is so introspective that I do think she sees the world revolving around her. All those multi-universes just satellites to the brightest star in all creation - Michael Burnham. She is written that way...

I'm not sure she made much advancement in this arc. Just because her threat of mutiny in the final episode had the desired result does not justify it. Does not show growth. All we got to see was that the first time she did it she got a redundant prison sentence (insert rolling eyes and mockery here). The second time she gets a bloody medal (insert rolling eyes and mockery again). Michael IS entitled and she is representative of that. She knows more than anyone else. She's can kick arse better than anyone else. Better scientist than anyone else. Holds the record of going on all the away missions. Every older character wants to be her parent, lol. She does no wrong even when she does wrong.

Everything will come up Burnahm! That's funny, Groppler.

Thanks

I honestly think I’d enjoy Discovery a heck of a lot more if Michael wasn’t in it.

The scene in “choose your pain” where Saru rescues Lorca is great. Why? Because Michael is locked in her cabin.

she's kind of fucking boring.

^ omg she’s as dull as dishwater.

I don’t understand why they made her the protagonist. Tilly would have been a better choice. She’s an awkward outsider - I can relate to her.

I know starfleet churns our Uber humans who are super clever (c.f. Geordi laforge, harry Kim, b’ellana Torres, etc.) but I just can’t relate to Michael at all.

Give her a red shirt!

 

[Groppler Zorn]

As an aside, having recently rewatched all of Trek, it's stunning to me that even though DS9 pretty much fixed the Ferengi on day one of its run, the last season of TNG, VOY, and ENT still had no real idea what to do with them.



Not much is canonically established for 2257/2258. We know Kirk graduates from Starfleet, and the USS Farragut loses 200 crewmembers to the dikironium cloud creature. Kodos begins his undercover life as part of a traveling Shakespeare troupe. And Robert Wesley's daughter is born. That's about it.

I didn’t mind the Voyager one with the ferengi from “the price” in it. But other than that they seemed to be as one dimensional as they were in next gen.

And rats - the disco era sounds really boring.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

So, she's the V'ger of DISCO?

Maybe by the end of the show we’ll see Michael attain sentience?

 

[BillJ]

Maybe by the end of the show we’ll see Michael attain sentience?

If you cut out the writing and direction, she really is a great character!

*Martin-Green really deserved better than the material she had to work with.

 

[eschaton]

Because DS9 didn't really do that.

What they did was develop a small group, a family, giving them depth and personalities and foibles as people. Quark and those close to him were about the best thing DS9 did. That having been said, when other Ferengi were brought on to the show they still tended to be comic, or comically threatening, foils who made Quark and Nog and Rom look even better by comparison. Some of the performances were first rate. But at the end of DS9 as a people the Ferengi had been made no less ridiculous, their fascination with profit having become even more exaggerating for humorous effect when we learned that they sold bits of dead people as collector's items or Wally Shawn came on and played the Grand Nagus as something between a wily old coot and a buffoon and so forth.

Almost all of the "Rules of Acquistion" were coined and "quoted" as jokes of one kind or another.

Look at the Ferengi episodes taken as a group - they're some of my favorites, but you won't have any trouble finding Niners around here who hate them.

Writers for the other shows had the same Ferengi they'd always had, just with a lot of detail scribbled in. What they didn't have were Shimerman or Grodenchik or Eisenberg playing characters who would be part of the show week after week and treated in the same way that other regulars were.

Hrrm...I see what you mean. At the same time, ENT did...okay...with the Klingons, despite not having a Klingon main cast member. So I don't think that it was inconceivable (sorry, Wallace Shawn on the brain now) that the race could have been done some justice with better writing and guest actors.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

If you cut out the writing and direction, she really is a great character!

*Martin-Green really deserved better than the material she had to work with.

She seems like a capable actress - I’ve never seen her in anything else so I’ve no basis for comparison. But the way her character is written is dreadful and reminds me of Harry Potter... “yer a human, Michael”